God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Gadianton]

What do you think, as a non-believer in the restoration, would be that "threshold" at which faith would become impossible?

Didn't Brigham Young say something like, "pray that you don't see an angle, because all those who have, have left the church?"

I also point to Sons of Perdition. The general belief is that to qualify one must have had the visitation of the Son. It would seem like no amount of evidence is too great to quell doubt. Satan and the 1/3 had a perfect knowledge of God. There is no risk of revealing too much, because there is such a wide and vibrant cast of characters who knew it all and turned away.

If sweet lemons don't work, "ignorance leaves room for faith" then try sour grapes, "Even those who see God still doubt."

And, in the view you tried to pawn off recently that faith is just inductive reasoning, since we can't escape inductive reasoning, we are in no danger of faith collapsing. If I drop a ball and it falls to the floor a thousand times in a row, it still requires faith for me to maintain it shall do the same the next time. Every time I open the door and expect nourishing outside air to fill my lungs and not a poison gas, I'm expressing faith. And so if God reveals himself to me right now, it will still require faith since how can I really know I'm not hallucinating?

I think a real issue for religion is that the so-called "sign seeker" is vilified. I'm the type of guy who can get up, go to work, do a boring job, come home and find entertainment in simple things. If you think it would be any challenge at all to add to that, go to church on Sunday, pay tithing, and serve a senior mission, you'd be wrong. I'd just need the base amount of evidence that it will be worth my time. I can put a solid effort into my job and then some because I trust I'll get paid. If God wants to come down from heaven and prove to me that there's this huge plan going on, then the discipline required to follow through on my part is pretty simple to muster.

[Limnor]

Nothing against you personally except for the fact that I see a bit of circumventing going on again as I did the last few days.

I don't see that as being very productive. It's like whistling in the wind. Only bits and pieces being heard.

If I offended you, I'm sorry. Really, I'm good.

Not offended at all, just a little surprised at the tone.

[I Have Questions]

Wow you are all fired up today! Must have been a particularly inspiring day at church—you seem ready to chew up some unsuspecting Korihor investigator! How do you grade yourself on bearing testimony to investigators today?

Sincerely though, you ok?

Ha! I'm fine. Good day at church. If I've come across as bearing testimony, that's not my intent. At least not in a traditional sense. I like to throw ideas around but when I can see things are either going in circles or nowhere at all...I lose interest. I've spent to much time over the years going up blind alleys and down rabbit trails that I see as having little or no real value.

Nothing against you personally except for the fact that I see a bit of circumventing going on again as I did the last few days.

I don't see that as being very productive. It's like whistling in the wind. Only bits and pieces being heard.

If I offended you, I'm sorry. Really, I'm good. Sitting here reading a book called "How To Test Negative for Stupid' written by John Kennedy, Senator from Louisiana.

What a character! And smart as a whip. Watching him question people during committee hearings is pure joy/entertainment.

Take care.

Regards,
MG

By “going down blind alleys” you mean “people aren’t agreeing with me and I’m running out of ideas”. And so, as always, instead of learning and developing, you run away with a parting shot aimed at maintaining your self belief that you are right and everyone else is wrong and “you’ve shown them”. It’s a very clear pattern of behaviour at this point.

[Limnor]

If sweet lemons don't work, "ignorance leaves room for faith" then try sour grapes, "Even those who see God still doubt."

I think you’re right that knowledge doesn’t guarantee loyalty. As James wrote, even the demons believe, and tremble. But knowledge, even certainty, is not the same thing as trusting. So I’m not convinced faith is identical to induction. It feels closer to trusting the faithfulness of the other. Maybe I’m sensitive to that because I care a lot about being trustworthy myself.

I agree with you about signs. It doesn’t seem like signs are inherently opposed to faith, and seem aligned to audiences and intent. When Thomas asks for evidence, Jesus does not rebuke him for wanting proof, He provides it. Thomas’s response, “My Lord and my God,” suggests that the evidence supported a shift to personal trust.

[yellowstone123]

Over the years participating on this board, I have seen so many examples of this truth:

God can write straight with crooked lines.

I think it would be interesting to hear where others might come from as they consider this truth. First of all, are we willing to accept...if there is a creator God...that He would "write straight with crooked lines?" It would be interesting, just like in hopscotch, whether we can actually get to square one, or the first jump.

Obviously, I wouldn't ask the question if I didn't have an opinion. The problem is, if I present mine...as usual...folks will 'hop' all over the place simply trying to either make me look stupid or nonsensical, etc.

So, what are some of your thoughts? Hypothetically speaking, if there is a creator God, can/does He write straight with crooked lines?

By the way, this question can be used in conjunction with so many questions and issues that are brought up ad nauseum in regard to Mormonism, the apostasy, blacks and priesthood, current cultural battles, etc.

I'm going to stand back and watch, learn, and listen.

Regards,
MG

It might be easier to ask if the LDS church can write straight with crooked lines, and one might replace the image of a person playing hopscotch with a person using an Etch A Sketch.

[MG 2.0]

Over the years participating on this board, I have seen so many examples of this truth:

God can write straight with crooked lines.

I think it would be interesting to hear where others might come from as they consider this truth. First of all, are we willing to accept...if there is a creator God...that He would "write straight with crooked lines?" It would be interesting, just like in hopscotch, whether we can actually get to square one, or the first jump.

Obviously, I wouldn't ask the question if I didn't have an opinion. The problem is, if I present mine...as usual...folks will 'hop' all over the place simply trying to either make me look stupid or nonsensical, etc.

So, what are some of your thoughts? Hypothetically speaking, if there is a creator God, can/does He write straight with crooked lines?

By the way, this question can be used in conjunction with so many questions and issues that are brought up ad nauseum in regard to Mormonism, the apostasy, blacks and priesthood, current cultural battles, etc.

I'm going to stand back and watch, learn, and listen.

Regards,
MG

It might be easier to ask if the LDS church can write straight with crooked lines, and one might replace the image of a person playing hopscotch with a person using an Etch A Sketch.

I appears as though what you are doing is pointing out the tension between how believers describe God’s activity in history and how the institutional Church often appears in practice.

I'm comfortable letting things stand as I originally crafted the OP. The question I raised was intentionally about a "creator God', not primarily about the church. In this way believers and non believers were/are able to engage the idea at a more basic level before immediately collapsing everything into the familiar 'LDS truth claims debate'.

The hop scotch image was an invitation to explore whether we can get to "square one" in thinking about God's action in a messy world.

I think things went according to plan, on the whole.

Admittedly, on a board such as this one, things will eventually become boxed into one's own views regarding the restoration narrative and the resulting outgrowth of CofJCofLDS.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

If sweet lemons don't work, "ignorance leaves room for faith" then try sour grapes, "Even those who see God still doubt."

I think you’re right that knowledge doesn’t guarantee loyalty. As James wrote, even the demons believe, and tremble. But knowledge, even certainty, is not the same thing as trusting. So I’m not convinced faith is identical to induction. It feels closer to trusting the faithfulness of the other....

That is a key point, in my opinion. It's one of the "strengths" of the LDS church. I put strengths in quotation marks because in my opinion, the early isolation in the West allowed quick growth of bic membership where people were trained in that trust from birth, so the strength was in promoting growth. That isolation slowly fell apart, and then started moving extremely quickly with the advent of the internet. The "strength" turned in to a weakness when one could investigate for oneself rather than 'just believe,' and the facts didn't match the story. It's a weakness now as people feel betrayed by the dishonesty of being asked to trust in something that cannot be logically supported. Someone in another thread, If I recall correctly, suggested Mormonism looks, from the outside, like another version of a flat earth society. I agree, and it's difficult to find that out from the inside. The erosion of trust is a significant burden.

So many stories are available these days of people who stay in the LDS church not because of trusting the old version of the truth, but because of not wanting to upset family, or lose familial benefits, including monetary ones. Even our mentalgymnast here has admitted he stays because of his family connections. It's the last vestige of that trust in others, in my opinion, that is holding a church together, and the damage continues to accumulate.

[MG 2.0]

If God wants to come down from heaven and prove to me that there's this huge plan going on, then the discipline required to follow through on my part is pretty simple to muster.

But He hasn't, right? So what is one to do in that instance? Are you only going to be satisfied if and when God literally comes through your front door carrying a sign that says, "I've got a plan!"

Without even knocking and asking permission?

I'm curious as to what you really mean when you say, "If God wants to come down from heaven and prove to me..."

What do you imagine that would look like?

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

I think you’re right that knowledge doesn’t guarantee loyalty. As James wrote, even the demons believe, and tremble. But knowledge, even certainty, is not the same thing as trusting. So I’m not convinced faith is identical to induction. It feels closer to trusting the faithfulness of the other....

That is a key point, in my opinion. It's one of the "strengths" of the LDS church. I put strengths in quotation marks because in my opinion, the early isolation in the West allowed quick growth of bic membership where people were trained in that trust from birth, so the strength was in promoting growth. That isolation slowly fell apart, and then started moving extremely quickly with the advent of the internet. The "strength" turned in to a weakness when one could investigate for oneself rather than 'just believe,' and the facts didn't match the story. It's a weakness now as people feel betrayed by the dishonesty of being asked to trust in something that cannot be logically supported. Someone in another thread, If I recall correctly, suggested Mormonism looks, from the outside, like another version of a flat earth society. I agree, and it's difficult to find that out from the inside. The erosion of trust is a significant burden.

So many stories are available these days of people who stay in the LDS church not because of trusting the old version of the truth, but because of not wanting to upset family, or lose familial benefits, including monetary ones. Even our mentalgymnast here has admitted he stays because of his family connections. It's the last vestige of that trust in others, in my opinion, holding a church together, and the damage continues to accumulate.

It’s a sad indictment of Mormonism that people stay out of fear of losing family connections, because they know their family/social circle will drop them like a hot potato the moment they stop attending Church. I believe it’s the primary reason Don Bradley returned to Church activity, for the community connection, not the religious belief.

[MG 2.0]

If God wants to come down from heaven and prove to me that there's this huge plan going on, then the discipline required to follow through on my part is pretty simple to muster.

But He hasn't, right? So what is one to do in that instance? Are you only going to be satisfied if and when God literally comes through your front door carrying a sign that says, "I've got a plan!"

Without even knocking and asking permission?

I'm curious as to what you really mean when you say, "If God wants to come down from heaven and prove to me..."

What do you imagine that would look like?

Regards,
MG

I'd be interested in responses from others also. Taking into account any 'complications' that might result from your own 'requirement'.

Regards,
MG