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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

beastie wrote:Are people going to be FIRED or something if new horse evidence were found?? Come ON, Zak. What happens when a scientist - in any field - makes a new, remarkable discovery?? Is his/her arse kicked to the corner???


Well, according to Ben Stein's film it appears that maybe they are if they believe in Inteligent Design over evolution. I still gotta see that film though.
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_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

See my last post... we are both conflating issues. Mercer (who was unsuccesful in linking animals with pottery) to which you linked. that's correct... but your book cuts off when it comes to the Schmidt party... who did the digging in other areas from 1970 to 1980 and did find pottery mixed with animal remains specifically horse. In layers VII and above. According to Sorenson. So again... we need the Schmidt findings.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Beside now both of us are fighting over mercer. Its the 1988 Spanish Schmidt that we need to look at. Which... your book does not have. Apples and oranges.


Yes, odd, isn't it? Everything's been debunked with the exception of the one spanish source - and Sorenson provides the only summary we can find.

Once again, Sorenson's batting average is very poor. I wouldn't hold my breath, Zak. You should start investigating tapirs instead.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

Yes and the one spanish source in even which your book cuts off... suprise suprise... gotta buy their book.... scientists pedalling their wares!

But its the most recent information. 1970-1980 published in 1988.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I reread the original schmidt reference, and he IS talking about the Loltun Caves, which is what I originally thought. So we're not conflating two different issues - it is one and the same, and it has been debunked.

Incidentally, horse bones were also found in association with cultural remains at Loltun Cave in northern Yucatan. There, archaeologists identified a sequence of sixteen layers numbered from the surface downward and obtained a radiocarbon date of about 1800 BC from charcoal fragments found between layers VIII and VII.66 Significantly, forty-four fragments of horse remains were found in the layers VII, VI, V, and II—above all in association with pottery. But the earliest Maya ceramics in the region date no earlier than 900–400 BC.67 Archaeologist Peter Schmidt notes,

What clearly results is that the presence of the horse, Equus conversidens, alone is not sufficient evidence to declare a stratum totally Pleistocene given the long series of combinations of this species with later materials in the collections of Mercer, Hatt and others. Something went on here that is difficult to explain. [Difficult to explain, that is, in light of current theories about the extinction of the pre-Columbian horse.] If a late survival of the horse and other Pleistocene animals is postulated as an explanation of the situation, it would have to be extended almost to the beginnings of the ceramic era, which will not please the paleontologists.68


These ARE Mercer's horse bones that were found to be modern.

It would still be interesting to see the Schmidt source, to find out if he made a dating error that was later corrected, or if Sorenson misused yet another source.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Yes and the one spanish source in even which your book cuts off... suprise suprise... gotta buy their book.... scientists pedalling their wares!


Hey, in their defense, this is their intellectual property and they have a right to "pedal" it. I'm just thrilled they allow us to peek into the books - AND I have bought several after peeking.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

These ARE Mercer's horse bones that were found to be modern.

It would still be interesting to see the Schmidt source, to find out if he made a dating error that was later corrected, or if Sorenson misused yet another source.


I think its a little pre mature to draw the conclusion. Did schmdit dig in another area of the same cave and come up with the 44 horse bones minggled with the ceramics?

IE was he finally successful in what mercer was not? Remember Mercers bones where on the surface. 10cm and above. The Schmidt find was the 16 level dig. that had horse bones above level VII.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

beastie wrote:
Yes and the one spanish source in even which your book cuts off... suprise suprise... gotta buy their book.... scientists pedalling their wares!


Hey, in their defense, this is their intellectual property and they have a right to "pedal" it. I'm just thrilled they allow us to peek into the books - AND I have bought several after peeking.
Oh its alright for the scientists but then when Farms does it... their hacks. Gotcha.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

No, Zak, both Schmidt references are the same article. It is the Loltun Cave. I'm tired tonight but will provide the black and white evidence of that fact tomorrow after work.

Oh its alright for the scientists but then when Farms does it... their hacks.


Where in the heck did I call FARMS hacks for trying to sell their intellectual property?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

You didn't but critics do. and have. I've seen it on a regular basis esp Re DCP.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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