LDS Apologetics Operating Costs Are More Than $7,000,000

[_Yoda]

Now I've got to go. I'm happy that I was able to provide some entertainment for you and [Mr.] Scratch. Sometimes, without me to stir things up, this place gets a bit slow and you two virtually disappear.

I knew it! Sound the alarm, folks. The REAL conspiracy theory of apologetics is:

Dan Peterson, Rollo, and Scratch, are actually all one person!

;)

[_solomarineris]

The fact that you seem terrified of proffering even a ballpark figure is very telling.

DCP,
I'm not terrified. I simply won't.

DCP
Like it or not, BYU has a general policy of not making its financial information available to the general public. The Maxwell Institute (of which FARMS is a part) complies with that policy.

DCP
And, although your winsome personality and notable charity toward me should certainly have earned you a special place in my heart, they just haven't. So I'm not going to go against University policy for you. Sorry.

Another question: how much of FARMS's budget comes from donations,

Most of it.

and how much comes from the Church?

None of it comes from the Church. Less than half of it comes from the University.

How many "Liahona"-level members exist,

I have no idea.

I nearly asked the question of our "clandestine fundraiser" Ed Snow during a meeting today. But I didn't.

and how much sway do they have in terms of the direction of Mopologetics [sic]?

None that I'm aware of.

When "Liahona"-class members contact Professional Fundraiser Snow, does he gently nudge them towards giving directly to FARMS Review, or other strictly apologetic ventures?

Sometimes he raises money to fund specific projects. Sometimes he raises money to fund general on-going operations. Sometimes he raises money for our endowment.

Here, by the way, is a photograph of our extremely secretive "clandestine fundraiser," with a brief biographical sketch of him:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/isparts ... n&whois=14

DCP;
I would love to partake some of your clandestine money laundering sceme courses.
Do you think you can send me a private PM, so I can learn how to stash my 8 figure income.
Awaiting your sincere reply
Yours truly
Muhammad Akbar of Nigeria
PS: I believe in Prophet too, I've heard you wrote a nice book about him.
You are an honest individual.

[_Gadianton]

Let's be clear about one thing, there are only four possibilities:

1) Dr. Peterson has concealed *cough* a rather impressive compensation package for his apologetic efforts.

2) FARMS "cooked the books", fudged numbers that it paid Dr. Peterson and others, and not just by a little bit.

3) FARMS made a mistake, a six-figure mistake if you will.

4) Various combinations of the above.

The final analysis? FARMS is either dishonest, incompetent, or a little of both.

[_Trevor]

At this point, I really don't care to speculate on it. I am interested in learning more about what goes on at FARMS, mainly because the LDS Church and its daughter organizations tend to have such a fortress mentality, but I am not as interested in the lurid tone in which they are revealed.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It's just interesting that it turns out you made a lot more from apologia than originally thought.

Except that your figures aren't accurate. I can't explain them, and don't really care all that much to look into them, but they're not accurate.

I know what I received for serving as chairman of the board. It wasn't $8K for six months, nor anything close to that -- let alone $20K per annum.

Not lying, just mistaken ...

About a $20K annual bonus for serving as chairman of the FARMS board? Not very likely. Academic salaries aren't so big that a nice little perk like that would have escaped my notice or faded from my memory. And my salary was substantially lower in 1999 than it is in 2008.

And if there is any "gross misrepresentation" about your income, then blame the Form 990 and take it up with the FARMS representative who signed it under oath and penalties of perjury.

If it's the accountant I'm thinking of, we fired him years ago for poor performance. (Is his name on the document?)

Anyway, I don't care all that much. I know what I earned (and what I didn't), it's money long since spent or invested, and, apart from this place, nobody has ever raised the issue.

If you and Scratch Maior manage to make it into a big public issue, I might have to get accounting people to go over the document. Barring that, it's not worth much effort. I have no ambition of ever having the good opinion of you two and your handful of disciples on this board, so there's no point in pursuing this issue at the present.

My being a bishop should not be a vehicle for cheap mockery or complacent put-down. It's irrelevant to the issues here.

Too bad you're the one who first mentioned it here.

I don't recall that I did.

I do. You mentioned it shortly after you were called. ou mentioned it in passing as opposed to an "announcement" (as you often do when you want to brag without being obvious). Find the post yourself -- it was yours.

Actually, if I recall correctly it was Bill Hamblin who mentioned it over on the board formerly known as FAIR -- that part is certain -- and then somebody from this place who monitors that board mentioned it here. Unfortunately, so far as I can tell the archives here don't seem to go back that far. I'm not sure that I was even posting here at the time. In any event, I didn't announce it on the board formerly known as FAIR, where my supposedly fawning cheering section resides, so it would be unlikely on the face of it that I would scamper over here to announce it to the unfailingly contemptuous likes of Mercury, Boaz & Lidia, Infymus, Scratch Maior, solomarineris, and you.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

It's just interesting that it turns out you made a lot more from apologia than originally thought.

Except that your figures aren't accurate. I can't explain them, and don't really care all that much to look into them, but they're not accurate.

If you really can't explain them, and don't care to, then how can you honestly claim they are not accurate?

I know what I received for serving as chairman of the board. It wasn't $8K for six months, nor anything close to that -- let alone $20K per annum.

Let's do this. We have 2 years and 6 months worth of Form 990's for FARMS, signed under oath, for 1997 by Assistant Secretary Brent Hall and for 1998 and 1999 by Executive Director Daniel Oswald, reporting that you received total compensation during that period of $34,400. You say this is untrue. Please tell us what you claim that number to be.

And my salary was substantially lower in 1999 than it is in 2008.

I bet it is. Too bad the numbers for Maxwell/FARMS are no longer available to the public.

If it's the accountant I'm thinking of, we fired him years ago for poor performance. (Is his name on the document?)

A guy named Brent Hall is listed as "keeping the books" for FARMS on the 1997 and 1998 Form 990's. A "Dean Bryson" is listed as keeping the books on the 1999 Form 990. The identity of the accountant appears to be blacked out on the 1997 and 1998 forms; the 1999 form reflects that no paid preparer was involved.

Anyway, I don't care all that much. I know what I earned (and what I didn't), it's money long since spent or invested, and, apart from this place, nobody has ever raised the issue.

I'm not raising the issue whether you earned whatever you were paid; I think you did earn it. I'm just pointing out what FARMS told the gov't you were paid, as required by all Section 501(c)(3) organizations.

If you and Mr. Scratch manage to make it into a big public issue, I might have to get accounting people to go over the document. Barring that, it's not worth much effort. I have no ambition of ever having the good opinion of you two and your handful of disciples on this board, so there's no point in pursuing this issue at the present.

We're not trying "to make it into a big public issue." We have simply reported public information relating to the issue in question. Like you, I see no need to pursue the issue -- the information is out there and reported, and folks can come to their own conclusions.

Actually, if I recall correctly it was Bill Hamblin who mentioned it over on the board formerly known as FAIR -- that part is certain -- and then somebody from this place who monitors that board mentioned it here. Unfortunately, so far as I can tell the archives here don't seem to go back that far. I'm not sure that I was even posting here at the time. In any event, I didn't announce it on the board formerly known as FAIR, where my supposedly fawning cheering section resides, so it would be unlikely on the face of it that I would scamper over here to announce it to the unfailingly contemptuous likes of Mercury, Boaz & Lidia, Infymus, Scratch Maior, solomarineris, and you.

My recollection is that you mentioned it here in passing. Since I was banned from FAIR (not just from posting, but also from viewing) some time ago, would you mind telling us when you were called as bishop? That may help clarify when I first read it.

[_Jason Bourne]

Ah. They haven't arrived quite yet.

I know you think you're never wrong

You're wrong about my thinking that I'm never wrong.

(hence, the absurd denials in the face of overwhelming evidence), but don't you think this is a bit much?

I would know if I had received $20K for a year or $8K for six months as a board chairman fee. I never did.

I don't know and I don't particularly care what the accountant submitted to the IRS ten years ago. If he gave those figures for my fee as board chairman, he was wrong.

Perhaps the accountant who prepared the return classified amounts paid to BYU for Dan's time as payments to the Chairman. THere are all sorts of ways to classify expenses and income when reporting to IRS and that are quite fine. I take Dan's word on it. My guess is it was paid to other organizations for his time.

[_Jason Bourne]

Let's be clear about one thing, there are only four possibilities:

1) Dr. Peterson has concealed *cough* a rather impressive compensation package for his apologetic efforts.

Let's be clear. 20k is not impressive. &k even less so.

2) FARMS "cooked the books", fudged numbers that it paid Dr. Peterson and others, and not just by a little bit.

Hardly.

3) FARMS made a mistake, a six-figure mistake if you will.

Huh? You get that where?

4) Various combinations of the above.

Or how about the 990 was filed quite finely and that accountant clssified various expenses in a way that may not reflect exactly what was going on. If they paid for Dan's time to another organization there is nothing wrong with putting it as pay for the chairman even if he did not get it directly.

The final analysis? FARMS is either dishonest, incompetent, or a little of both.

Or perhaps the spin masters here are dishonest and clearly incompetent in the conclusions they grasp for. Clearly you are sniffing for any little tid bit on the ground you can use to malign and destroy, anonymously I should add.

[_Yoda]

That makes sense, Jason. BYU probably "loaned" Dr. Peterson to the committee during that time frame. Since there are only so many hours in a day, DCP's time spent was just compensated by his normal salary even though he was devoting a little less time to the school.

This type of thing is very commonplace.

[_Jason Bourne]

That makes sense, Jason. BYU probably "loaned" Dr. Peterson to the committee during that time frame. Since there are only so many hours in a day, DCP's time spent was just compensated by his normal salary even though he was devoting a little less time to the school.

This type of thing is very commonplace.

Sure. Reasonable people can see this,

Other want to make a huge issue out of nothing. I wonder really what their intent is. It seems rather evil and malicious to me. I believe Dr Peterson is an honest man. I do not see him out to smear anyone's character unlike others here. I know a bit about business as well as tax forms. I understand that presentation is and can be somewhat of an art and numbers can be presented in various ways with no fraud or misrepresentation intended.