Keeping Religious Zealots Out of Power

Post by **_Gazelam** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:18 am

Jersey,

Sure, let me gather my thoughts first.

Have to go to bed now. Look forward to your thoughts tommorow.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:26 am

I think you're right, Gaz. I just went through the Book of Mormon to find some verses to rebut you, but it's clear it's all there in black and white. You accept Christ, or dwell in hell for all eternity (qualified by D&C 19, of course). No fine lines there. Corianton was forgiven for mission fornication with a harlot, but only because he repented. If he hadn't repented, he would burn in hell until the resurrection, then take his place in the Telestial along with fornicators and adulterers, liars and thieves, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

My apology. But if this is what forms your views, it might be time to reconsider my stand on the Book of Mormon.

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:30 am

Gazelam wrote:Jersey,

Sure, let me gather my thoughts first.

Have to go to bed now. Look forward to your thoughts tommorow.

I'm still here, I have to look up a verse for you.

Post by **_Gazelam** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:33 am

Ray A,

My apology. But if this is what forms your views, it might be time to reconsider my stand on the Book of Mormon.

All I say is that Christ is real and needs to be obeyed. I started a crazy tangent here off of an ofhand comment I made a week ago.

You take what you find in the scriptures and go to the Father in prayer about it and follow the Holy Ghost, not me.

Gaz

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:39 am

I was just about to submit a post when the cat walked across the keyboard and lost it on me. I'll try again right now.

Post by **_Gadianton** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:41 am

That's a start Gaz. But most fanatics I know of this persuasion will wonder why you are listening to a band at all that does regularily have anti-religious and perverse messages. After they've killed the ones who didn't burn undertow and Anemia, they might get desperate...

(those albums you kept are far from being free from blasphemy, by the way)

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:48 am

Gaz,

I have to go at this from the perspective that homosexual activity is sin. Without hauling out Paul's catalog of vices...

Unlike LDS, I don't think the Bible makes a distinction between one sin being more sinful than another except for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost/Spirit and I have never met anyone who knew definitively what that is.

1 Cor 10:13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

My thoughts on this are based on a number of Biblical indicators. Here are some:

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Romans 8:34

Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7: 24 & 25

But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save themto the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If I believe that Christ sits on the right hand of the Father and intercedes on our behalf, just as he petitioned the Father from the cross to forgive those who crucified him, I have to believe that an unrepentant homosexual has a chance at salvation just as anyone else.

I think our position as Christians is first and foremost to love one another and share our faith. Not condemn another person to death. We are warned Biblically against killing and commanded to love. We aren't the judge of a persons heart, God is. Man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart. (Old Testament)

I think that while a person can repent of sin, it's not within our human nature to resist a particular sin or other sins consistently throughout a life time otherwise why send Christ and why the need for intercession? Generally, I think that if the gay person doesn't have a chance at salvation then neither do you, I or anyone else.

Jersey

(Best I can do on short notice and under threat of the resident cat keyboard walker)

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:53 am

Gazelam wrote:
All I say is that Christ is real and needs to be obeyed. I started a crazy tangent here off of an ofhand comment I made a week ago.

Of course, Gaz. I doubt you really seriously and literally hold these views. I think it's all a reaction, but some of your views have come out in response to personal criticism of you. We know you don't like "fags", that's obvious. Many men outside the Church don't like them either. But you have a weapon they don't -scripture.

Gazelam wrote:You take what you find in the scriptures and go to the Father in prayer about it and follow the Holy Ghost, not me.

Tried it. Many times. I still believe in God, my "God meme" as I call it. LOL. But the God you advocate in your recent posts, is not the God I believe in.

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:58 am

Gaz,

Something else that always comes to mind when this topic comes up (and I've involved myself in this topic too many times to count) is the Christian goal to be Christlike. I see nowhere in the New Testament where Christ refers to a human being using derogatory slang words. He addresses them by name, by gender "woman" and reserved his most scathing criticism for the religious community.

I think that's worth calling to mind.

Jersey

Post by **_Sethbag** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:46 am

Gazelam wrote:Jersey,

Then why did Lot see his daughters as a fair trade?

Desperation. He was trying to save the city from the angels. A direct attack upon them would have ended it all right then and there. the angels struck the crowd with blindness until Lot could try to persuade others of his household to leave.

According to LDS theology, an angel is either a non-embodied spirit, a resurrected being, or a translated being. A non-embodied spirit has no body to die, a resurrected being is immortal, and a translated being is also immortal for the time being. What makes you think the citizens of the city would have been able to "attack" them? And why would such an attack have "ended it all"?

And why would the angels strike the crowd blind while Lot was trying to persuade members of his household to leave, but not strike them blind while they were gang-raping Lot's two daughters? It seems to me your angels were OK with letting that happen.

Bah, it's not as if any of this really happened anyhow. You realize you're arguing real-life morality and real-life hatred against people who actually exist, on the basis of mythology about people who probably never existed at all, and if they did, certainly didn't do what's written in the Old Testament. You may as well argue against homosexuality on the basis of material pulled out of Lord of the Rings.