Mormonism and the Trinity

[_Roger Morrison]

I have, for the record, never denied that the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred.

Nor, for that matter (to fend off a conceivable Scratchite attack in advance), have I ever endorsed it.

Dan, is there a post on this thread that your above statement pertains/refers to? If so where? If not, relevance?
Roger
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[_Daniel Peterson]

See the post from solomarineris, right above mine.

[_Trevor]

I have, for the record, never denied that the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred.

Was the reason for the "so-called" part because of the term "massacre"?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Mostly, it was because the massacre is so called.

Secondarily, it was because, as I understand it, technically, at least some of the killing (and perhaps the majority of it) didn't really occur precisely at Mountain Meadows.

There's no call to read anything deeply significant into the "so-called," let alone to interpret it as a denial or defense of the murders.

If I were to refer to "the so-called Toronto LDS Temple," it would not be in order to deny that the temple exists. It would probably be because the temple is actually located in the suburb of Brampton.

If I were to refer to "the so-called Holy Roman Empire," as in fact I have done, it would not be to say that it never existed, but to point out, as one wag famously observed, that it was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.

[_Roger Morrison]

See the post from solomarineris, right above mine.

OOOK. Thanks. I do sometimes have difficulty following creatively woven threads. Like which is a warp and which is a woof? Puppet shows in Switzerland?? Does that suggest You served a Mission there??? That you were/are under the hand of the Master Puppeteer??
MMM, for your reasons, is not endorsed by you???

Back to my query: Do you accept the Creation Story, as illustrated in the Temple presentation/performance, to be factual? Including Eve literally being made from Adam's rib, taken from him while under a deep sleep?

Seems this is a direct "Yes" or "No" question. Then, OTOH, you might have a better, more thoughtful response??
Roger
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[_solomarineris]

I have, for the record, never denied that the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred.
Nor, for that matter (to fend off a conceivable Scratchite attack in advance), have I ever endorsed it.

Dan, is there a post on this thread that your above statement pertains/refers to? If so where? If not, relevance?
Roger

Roger,
Coining the Phrase, came from DCP years ago when Will Bagley's book was published and became
wildly popular in the nation, especially around Utah, MADb opened an exclusive section for MMM
discussions only, If archives are still there one can still see the phrase abundantly used by DCP.
Yea, DCP never denied that it occured, does he also admit that;
Mormons killed defenseless man, women, children?
Local Mormons, TR holding Mormons?
Does he admit as a historian Mormons tried to cover up MMM for years and
heap all responsibility to Indians?
Does DCP ever admit Brigham Young was a ruthless tyrant when he ruled Utah?
This is all history. But of course being a historian himself, DCP cannot admit these facts.
That act requires cutting all the ropes and quitting being a puppet.

[_KimberlyAnn]

The Father, Son, the Holy Ghost.
To the Trinity, I raise a toast!
Ahh, yea!
One, two, three lock box.
Secrets of the Trinity lie within the number three.
One, Two, Three Lock Box

Suckers walk and money talks, but it can't touch my three lock box.

(This thread needed a theme song.)

KA
.
.
.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Coining the Phrase, came from DCP years ago when Will Bagley's book was published and became wildly popular in the nation, especially around Utah, MADb opened an exclusive section for MMM discussions only, If archives are still there one can still see the phrase abundantly used by DCP.

So far as I recall -- and I seem to recall it pretty distinctly -- I used the phrase only once.

Yea, DCP never denied that it occured, does he also admit that;
Mormons killed defenseless man, women, children?

Yes. To our shame.

Local Mormons, TR holding Mormons?

Local Mormons? Yes.

Temple-recommend-holding Mormons? Not so sure. I rather doubt it. There was no operating temple at the time, and temple recommends didn't exist then in their present form and function.

Does he admit as a historian Mormons tried to cover up MMM for years and heap all responsibility to Indians?

There was some attempt at concealing Mormon involvement, yes. But the situation is much more complex than solomarineris's formulation would suggest. Richard Turley's forthcoming book on the aftermath of the massacre will be very helpful on this point.

Thomas G. Alexander, "Brigham Young, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Latter-Day Saint Investigation of the Mountain Meadows Massacre," Arrington Lecture No. Twelve (Arrington Lecture Series) (Utah State Special Collection, 2007), is also a very important discussion of the topic. Unfortunately, it's difficult to obtain, and my efforts, thus far, to secure permission from the publisher -- I have the author's -- to make it more widely accessible via the FARMS Review have been without success.

Some basic, rudimentary information on the topic is available in the FAIR article entitled "Brigham Young and the prosecution of Mountain Meadows Massacre":

http://en.fairmormon.org/Brigham_Young_ ... s_Massacre

Does DCP ever admit Brigham Young was a ruthless tyrant when he ruled Utah?

No.

I absolutely do not.

This is all history.

No it's not.

But of course being a historian himself, DCP cannot admit these facts.

That doesn't make any sense.

Historians by nature and definition cannot admit historical facts, but non-historians, presumably, can?

Vintage solomarinated incoherence.

That act requires cutting all the ropes and quitting being a puppet

I consider the source, and then I say "Whatever."

[_Daniel Peterson]

Do you accept the Creation Story, as illustrated in the Temple presentation/performance, to be factual? Including Eve literally being made from Adam's rib, taken from him while under a deep sleep?

Brigham Young didn't believe the rib story to be literally factual, and neither do I.

That said, I regard the creation story as a mixture of the literal and the symbolic.

And no, I don't do theology or theological exposition on this or any other message board.

[_Joey]

And no, I don't do theology or theological exposition on this or any other message board.

Given that there is not a studied theologian in the First Presidency or Quorum of the LDS church, we can all understand and breathe a sigh of relief that we won't be put through the eqivalent of Book of Mormon historicity by those who have no peer respect there either!!!

Thanks for sparing us Mr. Peterson!