Mopologetics and the Sending of Emails

[_JohnStuartMill]

some curses don't become fully appreciated until after this life.

I'm quaking in my damned boots.

Ain't nothing after this life, Billy-boy. You won't be with your family forever (fortunately for them -- I can't imagine that you treat them much better than you treat people here). You won't get to meet this "Jesus" character that people keep mythologizing about. You won't get to engage in celestial procreation. You won't see Joseph Smith at the right hand of God. When you die, that's it. You might as well own up to that fact instead of puttering around defending the childish wishful thinking that your mammy and pappy inculcated into you.

[_beastie]

Will today:

Quite frankly, dear beastlie, I have never come across so much as a scintilla of evidence that "Danites" ever made any apostates pay for anything.

Will's past statement:

I suppose my only real regret is that the Danites aren't still around to make you apostates pay up for breaking your oaths. Oh, those were the good old days . . .

by the way, since when do folks who are engaging in violent behavior leave detailed lists of their victims?

And, of course, there is anecdotal evidence of violence. Defenders of the faith usually insist the sources are unreliable. However, that anecdotal evidence combined with the violent rhetoric of leaders makes it reasonable to conclude there was actual violence.

“I say, there are men and women that I would advise to go to the Presidency immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their care; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. We have amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are too deep a dye. You may think I am not teaching you Bible doctrine, but what says the apostle Paul? I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood.

Apostle Jedediah Grant
JoD 4:49-50

[_beastie]

I have never felt ashamed to say that I fear the Lord, and that I think upon his name. Perhaps, in so doing, I have not "profited" as much in this life as I might have otherwise. Perhaps, in the minds of some, my walk of life has seemed "mournful." Perhaps I've missed out on some things that might have been intensely gratifying. Perhaps I have unwisely sacrificed many things I might have enjoyed in this life in a vain hope that something better awaits me in the life to come.

But I think not. I have, on several occasions, caught a fleeting glimpse of what awaits those who patiently keep their souls. And I confirm what is written:

Believers like you make God sound like some sort of Mafia Don, replete with loyalty tests and promises of violence enacted upon those who are no longer loyal.

If any parent acted like the God you imagine and worship, he or she would be turned into social services, with good reason.

[_William Schryver]

JSM:

Ain't nothing after this life, Billy-boy. You won't be with your family forever (fortunately for them -- I can't imagine that you treat them much better than you treat people here). You won't get to meet this "Jesus" character that people keep mythologizing about. You won't get to engage in celestial procreation. You won't see Joseph Smith at the right hand of God. When you die, that's it.

How can you be so certain?

Are you so certain?

You might as well own up to that fact instead of puttering around defending the childish wishful thinking that your mammy and pappy inculcated into you.

Incidentally, my parents were not responsible for my religious instruction. My father was not a member; my mother was indifferent. My convictions are my own, and are based on direct—and continuing—revelation from God to me.

So, again, I ask, how can you be so certain?

[_JohnStuartMill]

JSM:

Ain't nothing after this life, Billy-boy. You won't be with your family forever (fortunately for them -- I can't imagine that you treat them much better than you treat people here). You won't get to meet this "Jesus" character that people keep mythologizing about. You won't get to engage in celestial procreation. You won't see Joseph Smith at the right hand of God. When you die, that's it.

How can you be so certain?

Are you so certain?

I'm not so certain. I put it to you in those stark terms because I didn't think you'd be able to hear anything else that far up your butthole.

You might as well own up to that fact instead of puttering around defending the childish wishful thinking that your mammy and pappy inculcated into you.

Incidentally, my parents were not responsible for my religious instruction. My father was not a member; my mother was indifferent. My convictions are my own, and are based on direct—and continuing—revelation from God to me.

Oh, so magic men in the sky are telling you they exist? I guess I'll just take your word for it.



By the way, I seriously doubt that your mother was always completely "indifferent". You should be aware that even a little indoctrination -- how do you know that your mother never had a fit of piety when you were especially young and impressionable? -- can go a long way.

So, again, I ask, how can you be so certain?

I'm not certain that magic men in the sky aren't telling you that they exist, you're right. But I have a pretty good idea. And I must say that your perpetually uncharitable demeanor is not tilting me in favor of your worldview.

[_William Schryver]

beastlie:

And, of course, there is anecdotal evidence of violence. Defenders of the faith usually insist the sources are unreliable. However, that anecdotal evidence combined with the violent rhetoric of leaders makes it reasonable to conclude there was actual violence.

Right.

A veritable mound of corpses, I’m sure. Countless unexplained disappearences of apostates throughout the territory all during that wild era of the roaming bands of “Danite” assassins.

You know, every once in a while I entertain the thought that you’re just pulling our leg when you uncork some of your more ridiculous statements/arguments/assertions. Then I realize you’re dead serious.

You and Martha Beck could become instant bosom buddies, I’m sure.

Believers like you make God sound like some sort of Mafia Don, replete with loyalty tests and promises of violence enacted upon those who are no longer loyal.

Oh, it’s much worse than that, beastlie! The worst a Mafia capo could do is take your life in this world. When it comes to God, the stakes are much, much higher.

And the ironic part is that the worst thing He has in store for you is to eternally deprive you of His presence, leaving you alone forever with an acute sense of self-disappointment on account of what “might have been.”

… how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

[Guest]

Will, you're missing out. I have received revelation from the Mormon^2 God, telling me that if I believe in Him, I'll be rewarded for DOUBLE eternity with the Mormon God AND the Mormon^2 God (who's way better because he can makes tacos so hot he can't eat them AND he can eat tacos so hot he wouldn't be able to make them), AND I'll get 72 virgins in heaven, AND there'll be Guiness on tap forever! You don't even know what you're missing, Will, and for that, I'm not mad at you: I pity you.

*shakes head resignedly; stoically wipes tear from cheek*

[_William Schryver]

JSM:

I'm not certain that magic men in the sky aren't telling you that they exist, you're right. But I have a pretty good idea. And I must say that your perpetually uncharitable demeanor is not tilting me in favor of your worldview.

I’m glad you find me unpersuasive, because I’m really counting on the vindicating gratification of you being among those for whom the following is written:

I have trampled them in my fury, and I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart.

Talk about “uncharitable demeanor”!

[_JohnStuartMill]

JSM:

I'm not certain that magic men in the sky aren't telling you that they exist, you're right. But I have a pretty good idea. And I must say that your perpetually uncharitable demeanor is not tilting me in favor of your worldview.

I’m glad you find me unpersuasive, because I’m really counting on the vindicating gratification of you being among those for whom the following is written:

I have trampled them in my fury, and I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart.

Talk about “uncharitable demeanor”!

Is that from the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Bible?

[_asbestosman]

Come on guys, why do you entertain such nonsense? Are you telling me that when you were believing LDS that you would have approved of death threats and illegal activity?

Asb, did you see the couple of waterboarding threads over at MAD a while back? The apologists by and large believe passionately in violence.

Are you telling me that you were a passionate believer in violence back when you believed in LDS claims? Come on.

I certainly believe in violence, but I believe we should use it only when circumstances require it such as in battle to defend yourself. I'm not saying that waterboarding suspected terrorists qualifies. Violence begets violence, and I don't enjoy being on the receiving end--the price is steep.

I think the whole waterboarding thing has more to do with political lines than religious lines anyhow. If you asked a Mormon democrat (yeah, they exist) what he thinks of waterboarding, I'm pretty sure he'd condemn it in harsh terms. Party line and all.