Jason Bourne wrote:Yes when you say we misunderstand what this man clearly taught.
Well settle down. There is room enough for us to disagree and not get all huffy and hostile with each other, right?
I mean the quotes you offer repeat suffering. I acknowledged already that suffering was the word he used. I don't know if he meant by suffering anythng more than remorse. Afterall remorse can include intense feelings and sufferings.
With that said, I'll got back to the earlier pages of this thread and let you all know that by seeing Kimball's words differently than you I do not mean to suggest I agree with all of his points. I take the general idea he's going after and I see how it can make sense. The level of perfection he seemed to advocate, the level of deep abiding guilt he felt was necessary is not something I've ever been on board with completely.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
stemelbow wrote:Well settle down. There is room enough for us to disagree and not get all huffy and hostile with each other, right?
I mean the quotes you offer repeat suffering. I acknowledged already that suffering was the word he used. I don't know if he meant by suffering anythng more than remorse. Afterall remorse can include intense feelings and sufferings.
With that said, I'll got back to the earlier pages of this thread and let you all know that by seeing Kimball's words differently than you I do not mean to suggest I agree with all of his points. I take the general idea he's going after and I see how it can make sense. The level of perfection he seemed to advocate, the level of deep abiding guilt he felt was necessary is not something I've ever been on board with completely.
I will tell you what Stem, you go read MoF again then come back and tell me what you think he meant by intense suffering.
Keep in mind that he later wondered if he had been to harsh in this book as related in the recent Bio by his son Edward.
On a brighter note, I know many of the current generation that believe the atonement is sufficient. One of the GD teachers recently taught a lesson about grace, and he even said that back in the 60s and 70s the church went way overboard on emphasizing works over grace as a way to differentiate itself from mainstream christianity. You can see that in those MofF quotes. He said we need to start focusing more on grace, and most in the class agreed. So I think there has been a shift recently away from the SWKs hardline stance, even though his book is still handed out by bishops.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
DarkHelmet wrote:On a brighter note, I know many of the current generation that believe the atonement is sufficient. One of the GD teachers recently taught a lesson about grace, and he even said that back in the 60s and 70s the church went way overboard on emphasizing works over grace as a way to differentiate itself from mainstream christianity. You can see that in those MofF quotes. He said we need to start focusing more on grace, and most in the class agreed. So I think there has been a shift recently away from the SWKs hardline stance, even though his book is still handed out by bishops.
I've noticed that too. We talk about grace occasionally in my ward. I never heard that growing up.
I still wonder if Robinson is the catalyst for that.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
stemelbow wrote:That's a weak dodge. We're talking about SWK and his views. You're trying to make MoF off-limits for no discernible reason other than his actual words are pretty hard to defend.
Buffalo - what you don't understand, is that anything is possible...When (that crazy old arsehole) said "intense suffering" what he might have meant was "lying on a feather bed, surrounded by fuzzy kittens, watching college football on a 50" plasma while being fed hotwings and beer by lingerie clad Jennifer Connelly and Jessica Beil"...Its possible - we just don't know what he was thinking when he said "intense suffering" - you don't know the context...
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents "I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
schreech wrote: Buffalo - what you don't understand, is that anything is possible...When (that crazy old arsehole) said "intense suffering" what he might have meant was "lying on a feather bed, surrounded by fuzzy kittens, watching college football on a 50" plasma while being fed hotwings and beer by lingerie clad Jennifer Connelly and Jessica Beil"...Its possible - we just don't know what he was thinking when he said "intense suffering" - you don't know the context...
I like this remote possibilities game. I could easily "remote possibility" the LDS gospel into anything I want.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
The Miracle of Forgiveness is really bad. Just... Bad.
Especially for Youth.
V/R Dr. C
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
schreech wrote: Buffalo - what you don't understand, is that anything is possible...When (that crazy old arsehole) said "intense suffering" what he might have meant was "lying on a feather bed, surrounded by fuzzy kittens, watching college football on a 50" plasma while being fed hotwings and beer by lingerie clad Jennifer Connelly and Jessica Beil"...Its possible - we just don't know what he was thinking when he said "intense suffering" - you don't know the context...
To be fair, That scenario may well represent intense suffering for a gay man...
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)
Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
schreech wrote: Buffalo - what you don't understand, is that anything is possible...When (that crazy old arsehole) said "intense suffering" what he might have meant was "lying on a feather bed, surrounded by fuzzy kittens, watching college football on a 50" plasma while being fed hotwings and beer by lingerie clad Jennifer Connelly and Jessica Beil"...Its possible - we just don't know what he was thinking when he said "intense suffering" - you don't know the context...
I like this remote possibilities game. I could easily "remote possibility" the LDS gospel into anything I want.
Somebody should make a list of expressions used in Mormonism that probably don't or must not mean what ordinary English speakers typically understand them to mean because if they did then something would be odd, absurd, implausible or contradictory (e.g. 'gold plates', 'horse', etc.).