Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

[_Themis]

If we can concur that learning language is a process which occurs over time, I think that we may get closer to agreement in looking at revelation in a similar manner. Language development is not a closed loop process. It is a process that involves interactive/experiential activity. Is is unreasonable to think that revelation is something that is learned in a similar way and is a progressive process by which the learner becomes fluent?

As Darth has already said many of us are very familiar with the LDS concept of revelation. It is strange from an LDS view point for why Joseph would even seek revelation on selling the copyright. It does make perfect sense from the view that he made it up. This is what asking the hard questions is all about.

Again, by asking this question that you did above, it shows that it is possible to ask without having spent a reasonable amount of time and effort to look at possibilities. Real possibilities.

Yes, real possibilities. That Joseph made it up is the most plausible explanation, not that this is a major issue that make people not to believe

That's what I was referring to earlier when I said that it is unfortunate that many people give way and give in to "immature doubt and easy dissent without having paid the price to receive the gift of faith."

People who have grown up in the church and been active their whole life take the easy way out by keeping their immature faith. It takes much more courage to accept reality that stares you in the face.

Part of paying the price involves asking hard questions, but then looking for REAL answers.

Yes, something I think you have not really done. Looking for real answers is code for making the ones you like up no matter how unlikely they are. This is done with people in many different religions. Your doing nothing new. by the way your whole OP is not something people have spent much time on, nor is it something that by itself causes unbelief. It's not evidnece against Joseph's claims, but then it is not good evidence for either. Spurven Ten Sing post was very good and right on point.

[_why me]

Why Me:

I am certainly glad that you have found evidence that Joseph Smith recorded Moroni's prediction when Joseph was 17 years old, rather than a ghost writer putting those words in Joseph Smith's mouth years later, when there were already Mormon missionaries in Europe.

Will you please share that evidence with the rest of us?

Most of the european converts came to the USA. Very few people heard of Joseph Smith during his lifetime. He was basically unknown. Now in America he was getting publicity because of his run for president and as a leader of a strange sect but he would have no clue that his name would be had for good or for bad throughout the world unless he had a premonition or saw the future growth of the LDS church. But I also believe that because of his experience in America, he knew that if the LDS church would be a world wide church that his name would be treated in the same way as it was during his lifetime on american soil.

[_Themis]

Joseph Smith was no Julius Caesar. However when we look at the time frame that he made this prediction, we will see that there was absolutely no reason for him to make such a prediction since he basically traveled in a very limited geographical area. He needed to have faith that Mormonism would eventually become a world wide faith because of his first vision and the restoration. And so, if he did experience his vision, then it would make sense that god would create a framework to have his church become world wide and Joseph Smith's name be had for good and for evil just as it was in his small geographical area.

You missed the point again. No one is saying he was a Julius Caesar. The point is that many people predict fame. I have seen a number in my own life who have. It's only the ones who are successful who we remember. The other problem is that the claim didn't make it public until after Joseph was already known in a number of countries, and the leader of a successful growing religion.

[_Darth J]

Why Me:

I am certainly glad that you have found evidence that Joseph Smith recorded Moroni's prediction when Joseph was 17 years old, rather than a ghost writer putting those words in Joseph Smith's mouth years later, when there were already Mormon missionaries in Europe.

Will you please share that evidence with the rest of us?

Most of the european converts came to the USA. Very few people heard of Joseph Smith during his lifetime. He was basically unknown. Now in America he was getting publicity because of his run for president and as a leader of a strange sect but he would have no clue that his name would be had for good or for bad throughout the world unless he had a premonition or saw the future growth of the LDS church. But I also believe that because of his experience in America, he knew that if the LDS church would be a world wide church that his name would be treated in the same way as it was during his lifetime on american soil.

That kind of takes the wind out of the sails of this being a prophecy. It sounds a lot more like a reasonable inference dressed up in prophetic language.

And you do understand, don't you, that European converts immigrating to America is irrelevant to Joseph Smith's name being heard in other countries, right?

Anyway, is there any evidence that you are aware of that Joseph Smith recorded this prophecy when he was 17? Do you even have any evidence that Joseph Smith himself really said this?

[_Darth J]

Again, by asking this question that you did above, it shows that it is possible to ask without having spent a reasonable amount of time and effort to look at possibilities. Real possibilities. That's what I was referring to earlier when I said that it is unfortunate that many people give way and give in to "immature doubt and easy dissent without having paid the price to receive the gift of faith."

Mentalgymnast:

I was born and raised in the Church.

I was ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

I went on a mission.

I was married in the temple.

I have had many, many callings, including being an elder's quorum instructor.

I went to the temple once or twice a month as a believer.

I read the Book of Mormon, the D&C, or the Pearl of Great Price nightly. I had a triple combination in my desk drawer at my office.

Exactly how much price must I pay, and for how many decades, before I can come to a reasonable conclusion about the truth claims of a church that asks investigators to be baptized during the second missionary discussion?

[_mentalgymnast]

Anyway, is there any evidence that you are aware of that Joseph Smith recorded this prophecy when he was 17? Do you even have any evidence that Joseph Smith himself really said this?

Can't help you with this.

Regards,
MG

[_Morley]

Anyway, is there any evidence that you are aware of that Joseph Smith recorded this prophecy when he was 17? Do you even have any evidence that Joseph Smith himself really said this?

Can't help you with this.

Regards,
MG

MG:

Here's the evidentiary link you posted before you had second thoughts and edited it out. I'm curious as to why you reconsidered the post. (I believe the part to which you were going to refer begins on about line 28.)

[_mentalgymnast]

Here's the evidentiary link you posted before you had second thoughts and edited it out. I'm curious as to why you reconsidered the post. (I believe the part to which you were going to refer begins on about line 28.)

When I posted the link and went back to see if it worked, it didn't. I wasn't savvy enough to figure out why, so I deleted it.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Here's the evidentiary link

Oh, by the way, thanks Morley for posting the link. I wish I was techie enough to figure out why my cut and paste of the link didn't work.

I posted the link because it was about as close as I could come to showing any source material for the 1823 Moroni visit. As I thought about it, however, it became pretty obvious that it would be unreasonable to even expect a source closer to 1823 that would have the account fully fleshed out. I think Darth is asking for something that we really wouldn't/can't expect to find. There are four accounts of the Moroni visit. One of them dates from 1832, but the one we have is from 1838, I believe.

Regards,
MG

[_Morley]

Here's the evidentiary link

Oh, by the way, thanks Morley for posting the link. I wish I was techie enough to figure out why my cut and paste of the link didn't work.

I posted the link because it was about as close as I could come to showing any source material for the 1823 Moroni visit. As I thought about it, however, it became pretty obvious that it would be unreasonable to even expect a source closer to 1823 that would have the account fully fleshed out. I think Darth is asking for something that we really wouldn't/can't expect to find. There are four accounts of the Moroni visit. One of them dates from 1832, but the one we have is from 1838, I believe.

Regards,
MG

This version suggests that the quote (for your OP) was from Nephi rather than Moroni.