Nightlion wrote: Joseph Smith had no problem chucking out the old and bringing in the new. I would insist that if this is not the case then God has left the building.
It was quite common in those days to change ones view on religion. Remember we are dealing with members and leaders for the most part who have had very little formal education, like many other people of this time. As these people would encounter new theology they would adapt it into their own systems or, as happened frequently, switch churches or even start a new sect. It was not uncommon to excommunicate someone one day for what ever reason, only to let him/her back in the next day. People simply changed their minds about their beliefs frequently and that was accepted as normal.
I would say our reactions now days, to doctrinal changes back then, is a fair bit of presentism. One of the drawbacks of correlation is it quashes theological disputes within the church and leads members to believe that church leaders have always agreed on doctrinal issues. As Consig has so ably pointed out this leaves members today who try to defend past leaders on issues where the leaders themselves obviously disagreed.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Brigham Young was perhaps one of the most evil men ever born. He was more of a Mafia Godfather than a Prophet. In fact, he publicly denied he was a Prophet and denied he was the successor of Joseph Smith. The Brethren are, thank God, getting rid of the unique doctrines of Brigham Young. But, they can't get rid of the man. They are his successors. All their claims of divine authority rest upon him. So, they must give him lip service, that he is a "prophet" etc., but they are shit-canning his doctrines...which is a good thing.
Google: "Jacob Cochran" and "Maine"
Google "Jacob Cochran" and "Brigham Young"
If you ever want to read about a real Prophet, who performed many miracles, whose prophecies were many and came true, read about Doctor Dahesh--the Prophet of Lebanon.
Nightlion wrote:
Daheshist wrote:In 1832, Brigham Young lived among the Cochranites of Saco, Maine, for four months. He told his companion to go home, which he did, and Brigham Young stayed by himself among the Cochranites. In 1835, Jacob Cochran died, and Brigham Young went to Saco, Maine, with 8 huge wagons he rented, and gathered up all the Cochranites, and brought them to Kirtland, and the Cochranites formed the majority of the early Mormon Church.
Jacob Cochran taught "spiritual wifery"; that all marriages were null and void unless approved by him. He also taught "thrashing" also called "sifting" in which he would throw his followers around onto busshels of hay while saying he was sifting the wheat from the tares. This "sifting" was actually part of the first Endowment used by Brigham Young in Mormon Temples, but it went out of practice after some older Mormons started breaking bones. Cochran also had a ritual in which his followers prayed in a circle, and a re-enactment of the story of Adam and Eve, but the participants were nude. Cochran was quite a scandal in Maine, and was jailed several times for teaching immorality.
Cochran is probably responsible for some of the more "odd" teachings of Brigham Young, such as Blood Atonement, the Curse of Cain, God having sex with Mary, and, of course, Adam-God. I think it is safe to say that Brigham Young became Cochran's "lieutenant" in 1832, as well as a Mormon apostle later.
One of Brigham's Young wife was Cochran's widow. I think you need to look to Jacob Cochran, and not Joseph Smith, as the origin of many of Brigham's more bizaar teachings.
Please site a reference. My opinion of Brigham Young has greatly diminished of late.
I've spent many hours, several hundred, studying Adam-God. Brigham Young absolutely taught it. He taught:
Elohim Jehovah Michael/Adam Jesus son of Michael
Adam is our God the Father, and Jehovah is our Grandfather, and Elohim is the Great-grandfather.
Brigham Young was confused, and his teachings were not logical nor consistent, but he did not care.
Adam-God was taught until 1904. Anyone who opposed it was excommunicated.
Brigham Young never called Adam-God a "theory". He never said "This is my opinion". He said it was a Revelation, and God revealed it to him. He was not "misquoted" as some have tried to say over the years. If a Member talks about it, or even inquires about it, they will be "counseled" to cease and desist. If they disobey this "counsel" they can be exed. If Church leaders knew we were discussing it here, all here who are Members would be "counseled" to cease and desist. If you "disobey" that "counsel" you are committing "unchristianlike behavior". The Church has never publicly repudiated Adam-God (Apostle Mark E. Peterson did, on his own). NEver, because that would bring attention to it, and get Members to start asking, "What? Adam-God what? What's that?" So, they deal with it underhandedly, secretly. I was threatened to be exed if I did not stop discussing it. Others have been. FAIR can discuss it because the Church likes what they are trying to do, but you can't discuss it "in Church" or outside of apologetics.
Daheshist wrote:Adam is our God the Father, and Jehovah is our Grandfather, and Elohim is the Great-grandfather.
I have never been able to find anything by Brigham Young that indicates Jehovah was our Grandfather.
Although it seems clear BY saw Jehovah as "between" Elohim and Michael in some sense, I have not come across BY drawing any kind of express relationship. This has led some "fundamentalist Mormons" to opine that Jehovah was the "Jesus" on Elohim's first world.
Do you have a reference for this?
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
Brigham Young was confused, and his teachings were not logical nor consistent, but he did not care.
Adam-God was taught until 1904. Anyone who opposed it was excommunicated.
Do you have any references to someone who was excommunicated for opposing it?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
I was threatened to be excommunicated for writing a paper on Adam-God. Go to Recovery From Mormonism, and ask. You may find other witnesses. The Church does not "document" that. The Church goes out of its way NOT to have that on paper, because the Anti-Mormons PUBLISH such things.
Try this experiment. Discuss Adam-God in Priesthood, and see what happens.
Fence Sitter wrote:
Daheshist wrote:[size
Brigham Young was confused, and his teachings were not logical nor consistent, but he did not care.
Adam-God was taught until 1904. Anyone who opposed it was excommunicated.
Do you have any references to someone who was excommunicated for opposing it?
Do you have any references to support this statement by you:
Adam-God was taught until 1904. Anyone who opposed it was excommunicated.
I am looking for historical accounts of people were excommunicated in BY's time that opposed his Adam/God doctrine.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
If a person opposes a teaching of the Church they are first "counseled" (warned, ordered), and if the person stops. If the person does not stop are counseled, they are exed. I know of one man who was exed, name may have been Buchanan, not sure. Read about it long ago. But he may not have been the only one exed, just the only one we have record.
How many Mormon men have been exed for incest? I know of none. That doesn't mean none have been exed. The Church doesn't publish that sort of thing.
Fence Sitter wrote:Daheshist,
Do you have any references to support this statement by you:
Adam-God was taught until 1904. Anyone who opposed it was excommunicated.
I am looking for historical accounts of people were excommunicated in BY's time that opposed his Adam/God doctrine.
In the tradition of bcspace, I am going to offer a wild and completely unsubstantiated theory as to why BY taught that Adam was God:
BY taught that Adam was God because it was the logical conclusion of the esoteric teachings he received from Joseph Smith. It makes sense if you consider Mormonism to be, not Christian, but a form of Egyptian religion that got passed through Masonry.
In Egyptian religion, you become the god/king at the top of your own pyramid by supplicating the god/king at the top of the pyramid that you are currently on the bottom of. Since Adam was the progenitor of the human race, that makes Adam the one who is at the top of the pyramid that contains the whole human race. So in order to become god/kings at the top of our own pyramid, we first have to supplicate Adam. From there it is a very short step to "Adam is God."