Science vs. Faith

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _mfbukowski »

Tarski wrote:
mfbukowski wrote:
Do species which science has not yet discovered "exist"?

they might not "exist" but they surely exist.

1) to be


2) to be known

see the semantic gap there?? No, I guess you don't.

Anyway, it is funny to think of some kid in some jungle being eaten by a species of large animal not yet known to science. His mother would not be consoled by your assurance that this animal doesn't exist.


Obviously this misses the point. In fact many species of new fish are "discovered" in fish markets and have been known to local fishermen for centuries who know all their habits and how best to cook them.

"Exist" is about as useless a word as "true".

Here is another analogy. I am going to make it disturbing so hopefully it communicates.

What I am saying is that the reductionism of scientific language and reasoning does not exhaust the full significance of being human, and that is what religion is for.

Imagine describing the physical details of the death of a child- the chemistry of the blood clotting and then blocking a pulmonary artery, let's say, compared to the human tragedy of the loss of a child.

The scientific description has nothing to do with the "reality" of the situation. Or imagine the precise engineering analysis of the collapse of the twin towers compared to the staggering human loss implied by those equations.

The equations do as little to convey the significance of what they represent as describing a spiritual experience as some chemical reactions in the brain of say Theresa of Avila

All 4 are linguistic descriptions- none capture or exhaust the human "reality" or significance of these events.
_mfbukowski
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _mfbukowski »

Runtu wrote:
mfbukowski wrote:You missed the point completely.
But if you also put science on the same footing in its sphere as a "useful fiction" you will understand it

They are in different spheres


No, I got it. You're trying to put science and religion on an equal footing, which is of course a common apologetic tactic.

That is reductionism at its best.

Anti-realism does not exactly qualify as a common "apologetic tactic". I don't quite think that is what Rorty had in mind. This is exactly why our postmodern discussion never got anywhere.
_Runtu
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Runtu »

mfbukowski wrote:That is reductionism at its best.


I was just repeating what you said.

Anti-realism does not exactly qualify as a common "apologetic tactic".

I don't quite think that is what Rorty had in mind. This is exactly why our postmodern discussion never got anywhere.


I thought it never got anywhere because you weren't interested in discussing postmodernism.
Last edited by cacheman on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Sethbag
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Sethbag »

mfbukowski wrote:
Runtu wrote:No, I got it. You're trying to put science and religion on an equal footing, which is of course a common apologetic tactic.

That is reductionism at its best.

Anti-realism does not exactly qualify as a common "apologetic tactic". I don't quite think that is what Rorty had in mind. This is exactly why our postmodern discussion never got anywhere.

It's your way of neutralizing science as something which can contradict your beliefs, thus rendering your beliefs unassailable.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Tarski
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Tarski »

mfbukowski wrote:"Exist" is about as useless a word as "true".


Do you use air quotes when you bear your testimony?

Image

The church is "true"

God "exists"

Joseph Smith was a "prophet".
Last edited by W3C [Validator] on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Sethbag
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Sethbag »

What's ironic is that apologists are stuck with the scare quote treatment of common words every day in order to defend the otherwise indefensible. Just look at "translate" as used for whatever it was Joseph Smith did, in conjunction with the Egyptian papyri, to produce the Book of Abraham. The normal, everyday meaning of words isn't good enough to defend Mormonism.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Nightlion
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Nightlion »

mfbukowski wrote:
I believe of course he DID not only exist, but was the savior of mankind. But no one can "prove" that.


What makes you think Christ as Savior cannot be proven? It certainly can be and ought to be by everyone who calls him Lord.

Nothing in all the world is more proven to the human soul than God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost when you engage them according to the commandments of the gospel and receive the promise of the Father which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It is proven to you so well that to turn utterly from it and deny it and consider it a thing of naught is the greatest sin man can commit.

The gospel is a pure science that is repeatable by anyone willing to do the discipline required to get the promised results. The purpose of the gospel is to provide a means for mankind to have joy. This is really ingenious of God to invent a means to make peace between everyone.

Since the science freaks dog pile their specialties I too get to heap up my stack of chips. It is impossible to forgive someone who offends you without a mediator. Not really. You might forget about it but nothing will heal without a Savior.

Think of it as keeping yourself spotless from the world. Religion is about visiting the widow and the orphan in their need, sure. But it is just as much for you when you learn of Christ and by faith continually make use of his infinite utility to keep you happy from moment to moment regardless what comes at you, you keep a life filled with joy. Everything about the world will contaminate you in some way. Just like daily life clutters up your house with its living. Things need to be put away, cleansed, organized and tossed out.

Every offense and drudgery that annoys us, even the need to eat, sleep and get around all take a toll on our being aggravated, upset and miserable if we are not wise. How can you clear it all off and keep a clean palette where you experience joy unceasingly? Christ said come unto me and I will give you rest unto your souls. He is not kidding. Without a Savior we are unable to keep a joyous soul with all that defiles us daily. Every mean thought, angry reaction, out right sin and depravity mars our existence and troubles us like a cluttered house.

Once you discovered the power of Christ to cleanse you, powerfully and fully and in ways you could not expect, coming unto him in meekness and desiring to be given power to overcome the world, that wisdom experienced forever after affords the utility of a constant application of that same reliance by faith to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. Meaning all the debris that flies up to annoy us daily can be managed perfectly by faith in Jesus Christ. We will forgive every offense and refrain from every ill passion for Christ's sake. He is worthy that we forgo vengeance, wrath, justice, and unkindness of every sort. Not because other people are worthy, heaven forbid. That is like cleaning up because the dirt deserves it. No we clean up to impress the company we keep, even if the company is only God and us alone. Christ suffered to warrant our devotion and is worthy of our centering our whole soul upon his merits to keep us clean and maintain a proper upkeep that automatically furnishes us with happiness and joy.

This is an odd sort of preaching that will be lost in theory until one might actually do it. It has been said that man is that he might have joy, and I say joy right here, right now. Nothing proves something better than seeing it work continually.

Mormons who know me cannot understand how I can be happy. I have forgiven them and do so continually. By the merits of Christ and my love for him I swallow up all offense and it has nothing in me. I am filled with joy. God invented this means to provide us an escape from the madness of cruelty. People are cruel. We can be cruel right back and defile our soul or continually forgo it all for Christ's sake and live a higher state of existence.

I judge a lot and people think I am the most despicable and vile person imaginable for it. I admit that I do judge and condemn broadly. At the same time I do not keep it or own it against anyone. This you do not know. Not for the people's sake do I rid myself of the clutter of an exploded world in complete spiritual disarray, but for Christ's sake, as he has taught me how to overcome the world by faith in him and relying upon his merits to manage it all perfectly.

I certainly did not come by this at first. I had no coach nor mentor. I have only been taught of God and he never gave up on me. Through the darkest times all I could keep was my love of God alive and that was enough to bring me to spiritual reason where I became skilled in the utility of faith in Christ.

'tis proof. Really good proof.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Tarski
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Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Tarski »

Nightlion wrote:
mfbukowski wrote:
I believe of course he DID not only exist, but was the savior of mankind. But no one can "prove" that.


What makes you think Christ as Savior cannot be proven? It certainly can be and ought to be by everyone who calls him Lord.

Nothing in all the world is more proven to the human soul than God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost when you engage them according to the commandments of the gospel and receive the promise of the Father which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It is proven to you so well that to turn utterly from it and deny it and consider it a thing of naught is the greatest sin man can commit.

The gospel is a pure science that is repeatable by anyone willing to do the discipline required to get the promised results. The purpose of the gospel is to provide a means for mankind to have joy. This is really ingenious of God to invent a means to make peace between everyone.

Since the science freaks dog pile their specialties I too get to heap up my stack of chips. It is impossible to forgive someone who offends you without a mediator. Not really. You might forget about it but nothing will heal without a Savior.

Think of it as keeping yourself spotless from the world. Religion is about visiting the widow and the orphan in their need, sure. But it is just as much for you when you learn of Christ and by faith continually make use of his infinite utility to keep you happy from moment to moment regardless what comes at you, you keep a life filled with joy. Everything about the world will contaminate you in some way. Just like daily life clutters up your house with its living. Things need to be put away, cleansed, organized and tossed out.

Every offense and drudgery that annoys us, even the need to eat, sleep and get around all take a toll on our being aggravated, upset and miserable if we are not wise. How can you clear it all off and keep a clean palette where you experience joy unceasingly? Christ said come unto me and I will give you rest unto your souls. He is not kidding. Without a Savior we are unable to keep a joyous soul with all that defiles us daily. Every mean thought, angry reaction, out right sin and depravity mars our existence and troubles us like a cluttered house.

Once you discovered the power of Christ to cleanse you, powerfully and fully and in ways you could not expect, coming unto him in meekness and desiring to be given power to overcome the world, that wisdom experienced forever after affords the utility of a constant application of that same reliance by faith to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. Meaning all the debris that flies up to annoy us daily can be managed perfectly by faith in Jesus Christ. We will forgive every offense and refrain from every ill passion for Christ's sake. He is worthy that we forgo vengeance, wrath, justice, and unkindness of every sort. Not because other people are worthy, heaven forbid. That is like cleaning up because the dirt deserves it. No we clean up to impress the company we keep, even if the company is only God and us alone. Christ suffered to warrant our devotion and is worthy of our centering our whole soul upon his merits to keep us clean and maintain a proper upkeep that automatically furnishes us with happiness and joy.

This is an odd sort of preaching that will be lost in theory until one might actually do it. It has been said that man is that he might have joy, and I say joy right here, right now. Nothing proves something better than seeing it work continually.

Mormons who know me cannot understand how I can be happy. I have forgiven them and do so continually. By the merits of Christ and my love for him I swallow up all offense and it has nothing in me. I am filled with joy. God invented this means to provide us an escape from the madness of cruelty. People are cruel. We can be cruel right back and defile our soul or continually forgo it all for Christ's sake and live a higher state of existence.

I judge a lot and people think I am the most despicable and vile person imaginable for it. I admit that I do judge and condemn broadly. At the same time I do not keep it or own it against anyone. This you do not know. Not for the people's sake do I rid myself of the clutter of an exploded world in complete spiritual disarray, but for Christ's sake, as he has taught me how to overcome the world by faith in him and relying upon his merits to manage it all perfectly.

I certainly did not come by this at first. I had no coach nor mentor. I have only been taught of God and he never gave up on me. Through the darkest times all I could keep was my love of God alive and that was enough to bring me to spiritual reason where I became skilled in the utility of faith in Christ.

'tis proof. Really good proof.


Kinda refreshing by comparison.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _Nightlion »

Tarski wrote:
Kinda refreshing by comparison.


That's how I feel today. Refreshed.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Science vs. Faith

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

mfbukowski wrote:There is at least one here who thinks he should be exalted to godhood because he was the chairman of the NYU philosophy department.


THE MAN IS A GOD AND YOU WILL PASS YOUR CHILDREN THROUGH THE FIRE BEFORE HIS FEET
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