The Top Ten and Only Reasons to be a True Believer

[_SteelHead]

I don't have a root of faith in the Bible... What other argument besides for the Bible says so, can you offer me?

[_Franktalk]

I don't have a root of faith in the Bible... What other argument besides for the Bible says so, can you offer me?

Nothing.

[_Alfredo]

I don't have a root of faith in the Bible... What other argument besides for the Bible says so, can you offer me?

Nothing.

Great! So, did you miss my last post to you or are you getting to it?

[_Themis]

Great! So, did you miss my last post to you or are you getting to it?

He is not getting it, and he won't get it.

Here he states about steelhead supposed religious claims

I don't know what bar you go to but I think they are mixing something in your drinks.

He does not see that the claims by him or steelhead make us much sense, yet he th9nks the other guy must be putting something in his drink.

If you don't have a root of faith then nothing can save you.

When he says faith, he really does not mean any other faith but his christian faith in the Bible, and has no reason as also stated to believe in it anything other then what one wants to(essentially why he cannot answer questions about discernment). I don't think franks God is the same one most Christians believe in, and not one you would want to associate with if it did exist.

[_Drifting]

Frank, you seem to be ignoring the content of my post.
I read the Book of Mormon.
I asked if it was true - got nothing.
I asked if it was false - got a spiritual confirmation that it was false.

Are you claiming that my spiritual witness is false?

I have to be real careful what I pray for. Like when I prayed for the content of the Bible. I received a confirmation of the core gospel. That is all. If you asked if there is a message in the Book of Mormon from God you may get another answer. But even this may not be exactly true. God's messages can come from anywhere.

Frank,

What is it about;
'I asked if the Book of Mormon was true' confuses you?

I complied fully with all the worthiness requirements of Moroni's promise (which, by the way, does not include very much as is it readily available to 'sinning' non members investigating the Church). I asked with true intent.

God told me it was false. He did so in the manner that the Church has taught me to expect when God is answering questions.

Please do not go off on tangents about the Bible, address directly what I am saying rather than what you want me to be saying.

[_SteelHead]

In my drinks?

Ingredients

1/2 lime, quartered
1 teaspoon white sugar
2 1/2 fluid ounces cachaca
1 cup ice cubes
Directions

In a large rocks glass squeeze and drop in 2 eighths of lime. Add sugar, crush and mix with a spoon. Pour in the cachaca and plenty of ice. Stir well.

Exu is a diety of combustibles. Exu likes offerings of cachaca.

Exú is one of the most well-known spirits of the Brazilian religion and related African-derived traditions. Exú is a powerful spirit who functions as Divine Messenger and Gatekeeper to the Spirit World. He sits at the Crossroads offering choices and possibilities to humankind. Exú represents balance: day and night, old age and youth, black and white, construction and destruction. He encompasses male sexuality, strength and fertility, and is privy to the mysteries of life and death. Exú is the lord of chaos and trickery, and the keeper of the life force/energy (axé). Nothing can be accomplished in the human world or the spirit world without the permission of Exú. He is translator and bridge between humans and the natural world - the sacred and the profane. Every living thing has a personal Exú.

Èṣù was walking down a road one day, wearing a hat that was red on one side and black on the other. Sometime after he entered a village which the road went through, the villagers who had seen him began arguing about whether the stranger's hat was black or red. The villagers on one side of the road had only been capable of seeing the black side, and the villagers on the other side had only been capable of seeing the red one. They soon came to blows over the disagreement which caused him to turn back and rebuke them, revealing to them how one's perspective can be as correct as another person's even when they appear to be diametrically opposed to each other. He then left them with a stern warning about how closed-mindedness can cause one to be made a fool. In other versions of this tale, the two halves of the village were not stopped short of extreme violence; they actually annihilated each other, and Èṣù laughed at the result, saying "Bringing strife is my greatest joy".

I think it sad that Frank can not offer me any reason to believe in the Bible, outside of the Bible says so.

[_Franktalk]

Please do not go off on tangents about the Bible, address directly what I am saying rather than what you want me to be saying.

Let me make this very clear. The words in scripture are interpreted by our mind which can be greatly influenced by our world view. If the words in the Bible are filtered in such a way that the message that is intended is not picked up by the person reading then the Holy Ghost will not witness to the false interpretation. It is that simple. I asked you to Interpret Romans 10 and 11 to see how you interpret scripture. If you can't interpret at all then the Holy Ghost again will not witness to nothing. The Holy Ghost witnesses to truth. Using your assessment of Romans as a base line we can form an idea of your interpreting skills. If you have none then I suspect that the Holy Ghost knows that.

Do you want to find out the truth or do you wish to argue for the sake of arguing?

The group of you always talk like you wish to know the truth but it appears what you want is to support your own views regardless of what the truth may be. The hardest thing for me to do was to let scripture speak for itself and trust it. When I read some verses it appeared that the message in one area was in conflict with another area. So I learned to trust scripture and set aside those areas and then do research into those topics. In many cases after looking at the whole of scripture I found out it was me that was the problem. I was reading something into scripture that was not there. Once I let it speak for itself the problems went away.

The whole issue of trust and the Holy Ghost being a witness is based on faith. Once we know there is a God then we try and find out who God is, we search for His character in the words He has given His prophets. This is how we know about God. If we get on the right track then the Holy Ghost witnesses to us that we should keep going. Or it will tell us to try something else. People don't like to be told they are wrong about something they feel very strongly about. They much rather fool them self by saying the communication was support for their view. Very few people have an open mind.

Where many feel that the process of the witness is cut and dry I have a completely different opinion. God is vastly complex and the witness of the Holy Ghost is the same. That is why people get it all wrong. They have preconceived notions and those cloud up everything. We are to be led by the Holy Ghost we don't dictate to the Holy Ghost.

If you and I have a different view of a witness then one or both of us are in error. The problem can be solved if we look at us not the Holy Ghost. I am able and willing to lay all of my beliefs on the table in the light of day and let the truth rise. Are you also willing? For all of the posts done here I have shared many of my views. Just look back and see how many others have done the same. My question must be why is it that I am willing to share and others are not? Just what kind of faith do you and the others have? If it turns out the group of you have no faith and no spiritual walk then I will know for sure that The Holy Ghost has not witnessed to you.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[_SteelHead]

Frank,
I have no basis for belief in the Bible and no basis for belief in the holy ghost but I have seen the orixas manifest themselves.

Why should I believe in your Christian-judeo philosophy when I have seen the orixas?

[_Drifting]

Please do not go off on tangents about the Bible, address directly what I am saying rather than what you want me to be saying.

<goes off on tangents about the Bible and avoids addressing directly what Drifting posted>

Frank,

Back on topic, can you explain how to interpret this...
 

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[_Alfredo]

Great! So, did you miss my last post to you or are you getting to it?

He is not getting it, and he won't get it.

Here he states about steelhead supposed religious claims

I don't know what bar you go to but I think they are mixing something in your drinks.

He does not see that the claims by him or steelhead make us much sense, yet he th9nks the other guy must be putting something in his drink.

If you don't have a root of faith then nothing can save you.

When he says faith, he really does not mean any other faith but his christian faith in the Bible, and has no reason as also stated to believe in it anything other then what one wants to(essentially why he cannot answer questions about discernment). I don't think franks God is the same one most Christians believe in, and not one you would want to associate with if it did exist.

I think he's capable.

He just needs to understand that we're trying to isolate the difference between the extremely convincing perception of an "un-twisted" Truth and actual "un-twisted" Truth. He needs to understand that they are distinct and we must need a way to discern between them.

I think just giving examples causes his brain to stop before he can comprehend that the example was raised for some separate purpose other than to question the internal consistency of his paradigm. I think we should lose the examples and just state why we bring them up in the first place.

It's what we're each trying to get at and it's all we need him to acknowledge and it all falls apart from there.

Well, I suspect he'll just quit reasoning, make emotional assertions, and then pretend his emotional attachments and insecurities are valid arguments against reason.