Family dies holding hands, praying

[_Chap]

It's just too bad that holy scripture teaches the magic genie view of God, isn't' it?

I disagree.

Jesus said God will grant you anything you ask for, even if your faith is weak. Sounds like a magic genie to me.

Matthew 17:

14 When they returned to the crowd, a man came to Jesus, knelt before him,15 and said,
Sir, have mercy on my son! He is an epileptic and has such terrible attacks that he often falls in the fire or into water.16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.

17 Jesus answered,
How unbelieving and wrong you people are! How long must I stay with you? How long do I have to put up with you? Bring the boy here to me!18 Jesus gave a command to the demon, and it went out of the boy, and at that very moment he was healed.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked him,
Why couldn't we drive the demon out?
20
It was because you do not have enough faith, answered Jesus.
I assure you that if you have faith as big as a mustard seed, you can say to this hill,
Go from here to there! and it will go. You could do anything!]

Of course Jesus didn't actually mean that you could do anything so long as you had a little tiny bit of faith. I mean, how could he have been that naïve?

And of course mustard seeds in those days were really big in any case.

[_Tobin]

20
It was because you do not have enough faith, answered Jesus.
I assure you that if you have faith as big as a mustard seed, you can say to this hill,
Go from here to there! and it will go. You could do anything!]

Of course Jesus didn't actually mean that you could do anything so long as you had a little tiny bit of faith. I mean, how could he have been that naïve?
And of course mustard seeds in those days were really big in any case.

I haven't seen any flying mountains lately either. Have you? Again, as I said, this is just another example of how a very immature and simplistic view of God creates absurd notions and scenarios when taken out of context from the scriptures.

[_Chap]

20
It was because you do not have enough faith, answered Jesus.
I assure you that if you have faith as big as a mustard seed, you can say to this hill,
Go from here to there! and it will go. You could do anything!]

Of course Jesus didn't actually mean that you could do anything so long as you had a little tiny bit of faith. I mean, how could he have been that naïve?
And of course mustard seeds in those days were really big in any case.

I haven't seen any flying mountains lately either. Have you? Again, as I said, this is just another example of how a very immature and simplistic view of God creates absurd notions and scenarios when taken out of context from the scriptures.

This is getting bizarre. You know very well that I do not believe that there is a deity of any kind, let alone one that enables those who pray to him to throw mountains around.

You are well aware, on the other hand, of my arguments that the writings of early Christians suggest that they did believe in a deity who might well do exactly what you asked when you prayed to him.

And you know that my view is that they were simply wrong. (Whereas you on the other hand seem to think, with no obvious justification except that you are uncomfortable with the contrary, that since such a belief seems false to you, they cannot possibly have had such a belief.)

Yet you keep on pointing out the absence of non-flying mountains as if it counted against me. My admiration for you is fading fast ...

Oh yes, and I forgot to say 'knock yourself out'.

[_Tobin]

This is getting bizarre. You know very well that I do not believe that there is a deity of any kind, let alone one that enables those who pray to him to throw mountains around.
You are well aware, on the other hand, of my arguments that the writings of early Christians suggest that they did believe in a deity who might well do exactly what you asked when you prayed to him.
And you know that my view is that they were simply wrong. (Whereas you on the other hand seem to think, with no obvious justification except that you are uncomfortable with the contrary, that since such a belief seems false to you, they cannot possibly have had such a belief.)
Yet you keep on pointing out the absence of non-flying mountains as if it counted against me. My admiration for you is fading fast ...
Oh yes, and I forgot to say 'knock yourself out'.

Of course I'm well aware that you believe no such thing. I am also well aware that the early saints and Christ would have been equally aware of how preposterous this all sounds. That is why I'm stating that the view that this is literally what Christs is saying in his allegories cannot be taken that way.

[_Buffalo]

I haven't seen any flying mountains lately either. Have you? Again, as I said, this is just another example of how a very immature and simplistic view of God creates absurd notions and scenarios when taken out of context from the scriptures.

All that means is that Jesus was full of it. He made promises and couldn't deliver.

[_Nightlion]

Exactly. If there is a God (a dubious supposition, to be sure), he's not a magic genie--he's one sadistic m*****f****r.

What a bunch of cry babies! Just because you know that God can do anything does not justify our demand that he do anything at all. Do you want a world filled with inconsolable wooses?

God COULD prevent every harm. Got a booboo? Scream to high heavens against God for allowing you to get a tiny little booboo on your precious skin, awe, kism better?

Do you get my drift fellas? I a little embarrassed like everyone in the room is gay but me.

Oh, geeze, not that there is anything wrong with that........just, ya know, sayin.

Buffaoney, Christ owes nothing to nobody who does not come in at the gate and get established upon his rock which is his gospel. We are commanded to obey before the promises. Doo you all want to hear me innumerate all my blessings? hmm? Well, do ya?

[_Chap]

This is getting bizarre. You know very well that I do not believe that there is a deity of any kind, let alone one that enables those who pray to him to throw mountains around.
You are well aware, on the other hand, of my arguments that the writings of early Christians suggest that they did believe in a deity who might well do exactly what you asked when you prayed to him.
And you know that my view is that they were simply wrong. (Whereas you on the other hand seem to think, with no obvious justification except that you are uncomfortable with the contrary, that since such a belief seems false to you, they cannot possibly have had such a belief.)
Yet you keep on pointing out the absence of non-flying mountains as if it counted against me. My admiration for you is fading fast ...
Oh yes, and I forgot to say 'knock yourself out'.

Of course I'm well aware that you believe no such thing. I am also well aware that the early saints and Christ would have been equally aware of how preposterous this all sounds. That is why I'm stating that the view that this is literally what Christs is saying in his allegories cannot be taken that way.

Ah. That which seems preposterous to you cannot possibly have not seemed preposterous to early Christians, so even if they seem to be saying something you find uncomfortable, they can't have meant it really.

An excellent way of learning the truth. I wonder why you need the New Testament at all, since your own sense of what you find acceptable and what not is such a clear and reliable guide.

The clear statements I quoted from James and Jesus about the results to be expected from a believer's prayer were certainly not allegories, by the way. They were not even parables (which, I think you will find, are usually taken to be rather different things from allegories).

[_Buffalo]

Exactly. If there is a God (a dubious supposition, to be sure), he's not a magic genie--he's one sadistic m*****f****r.

What a bunch of cry babies! Just because you know that God can do anything does not justify our demand that he do anything at all. Do you want a world filled with inconsolable wooses?

God COULD prevent every harm. Got a booboo? Scream to high heavens against God for allowing you to get a tiny little booboo on your precious skin, awe, kism better?

Do you get my drift fellas? I a little embarrassed like everyone in the room is gay but me.

Oh, geeze, not that there is anything wrong with that........just, ya know, sayin.

Buffaoney, Christ owes nothing to nobody who does not come in at the gate and get established upon his rock which is his gospel. We are commanded to obey before the promises. Doo you all want to hear me innumerate all my blessings? hmm? Well, do ya?

Cry babies, huh? These kids are dead.



And you're an asshole.

[_Tobin]

Ah. That which seems preposterous to you cannot possibly have not seemed preposterous to early Christians, so even if they seem to be saying something you find uncomfortable, they can't have meant it really.
An excellent way of learning the truth. I wonder why you need the New Testament at all, since your own sense of what you find acceptable and what not is such a clear and reliable guide.
The clear statements I quoted from James and Jesus about the results to be expected from a believer's prayer were certainly not allegories, by the way. They were not even parables (which, I think you will find, are usually taken to be rather different things from allegories).

IF you want to make the case that the Bible should be read literally, then I think you should make it with someone that views it that way. I do not. I view the Bible as merely instructive and that should be read with a critical eye, some knowledge and understanding, and reason. Otherwise, you can be literally lead by it into believing a number of rather absurd and false notions.

[_Chap]

Ah. That which seems preposterous to you cannot possibly have not seemed preposterous to early Christians, so even if they seem to be saying something you find uncomfortable, they can't have meant it really.
An excellent way of learning the truth. I wonder why you need the New Testament at all, since your own sense of what you find acceptable and what not is such a clear and reliable guide.
The clear statements I quoted from James and Jesus about the results to be expected from a believer's prayer were certainly not allegories, by the way. They were not even parables (which, I think you will find, are usually taken to be rather different things from allegories).

IF you want to make the case that the Bible should be read literally, then I think you should make it with someone that views it that way. I do not. I view the Bible as merely instructive and that should be read with a critical eye, some knowledge and understanding, and reason. Otherwise, you can be literally lead by it into believing a number of rather absurd and false notions.

Isn't it odd?

People living two thousand years ago, in a completely different social, intellectual and religious setting leave us texts that contain notions that seem to a 21st century person like Tobin to be 'absurd and false'.

So those people must really have meant something else.

I am happy for readers of this board to make up their minds whether this way of reading ancient texts is likely to be a reliable one. I think my posts say all I need to say on this topic to Tobin.