Is it possible that Joseph Smith actually believed through his Holy Ghost that the papyrus he used to translate the Book of Abraham was a literal 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph? Is it POSSIBLE?
[ ] Yes [ ] No
Yes, it's possible Joseph actually believed that.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
LittleNipper wrote:One thing must be made perfectly clear. Christianity is not on trial when it comes to Joseph Smith and his revelations regarding what is often labelled Mormonism. The reality is that TRUE Christianity has rested entirely on the Bible and the witness of Christ accepting and Bible believing Christians long before anyone ever heard of Joseph Smith. And quite frankly, the only defense of Mormonism lies entirely on the belief that ancient Christianity had entirely fallen into apostasy and out of being Christian. The proof of this is what Joseph Smith said was revealed to him by GOD.
Now, obviously ALL people calling themselves Christian are not necessary Christian, and the truth of this is plainly revealed in the Bible itself 2000 years ago. It is also true that many have used whatever means was at their disposal including "religion" to further their own agenda and not the Good News --- also revealed in the pages of the Bible!
So it doesn't matter to me if the Joseph Smith is good or bad, saint or demon possessed --- or if the works surrounding Smith are fact or fiction; because my faith is founded on the Lord Jesus Christ entirely regardless of anything Joseph Smith ever wrote, revealed or had to say.
The only problem with that is that the Bible you keep bragging about is capable of multiple interpretations; and you are deluding yourself if you think that you have figured out the only right one, and everybody else who differs from you must be wrong—and I am not referring to Mormons.
Shulem wrote:I can appreciate your need and desires to have faith in your imaginary friend whom you believe is with you in everything you do. That's just fine if it suits you. Most people of every kind and stripe need something to sustain them through the wild and fascinating experience of life and that includes some form of religion and belief.
Having ditched both Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith, I've found true happiness and peace in myself and am literally the savior to myself. It's wonderful.
You do realize that Jesus Christ is dead and only your faith in him is all you have. He's not coming back. He's history. Same for Joseph Smith, he's history too.
That is all well and good until disaster strikes, and you suddenly discover that death is not quite the end that you thought it was.
LittleNipper wrote:One thing must be made perfectly clear. Christianity is not on trial when it comes to Joseph Smith and his revelations regarding what is often labelled Mormonism. The reality is that TRUE Christianity has rested entirely on the Bible and the witness of Christ accepting and Bible believing Christians long before anyone ever heard of Joseph Smith. And quite frankly, the only defense of Mormonism lies entirely on the belief that ancient Christianity had entirely fallen into apostasy and out of being Christian. The proof of this is what Joseph Smith said was revealed to him by GOD.
Now, obviously ALL people calling themselves Christian are not necessary Christian, and the truth of this is plainly revealed in the Bible itself 2000 years ago. It is also true that many have used whatever means was at their disposal including "religion" to further their own agenda and not the Good News --- also revealed in the pages of the Bible!
So it doesn't matter to me if the Joseph Smith is good or bad, saint or demon possessed --- or if the works surrounding Smith are fact or fiction; because my faith is founded on the Lord Jesus Christ entirely regardless of anything Joseph Smith ever wrote, revealed or had to say.
The only problem with that is that the Bible you keep bragging about is capable of multiple interpretations; and you are deluding yourself if you think that you have figured out the only right one, and everybody else who differs from you must be wrong—and I am not referring to Mormons.
Multiple interpretations don't mean that an one any of the interpretations are wrong unless a specific interpretation contradicts other scripture. The Bible must be interpreted in light of both the Holy Spirit and both New and Old Testaments.
LittleNipper wrote:Multiple interpretations don't mean that an one any of the interpretations are wrong unless a specific interpretation contradicts other scripture. The Bible must be interpreted in light of both the Holy Spirit and both New and Old Testaments.
And what makes you so sure you have got it right, and everybody else who may disagree with you has got it wrong? Who is to say that they have not got it right, and you have not got it wrong?
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:So it doesn't matter to me if the Joseph Smith is good or bad, saint or demon possessed --- or if the works surrounding Smith are fact or fiction; because my faith is founded on the Lord Jesus Christ entirely regardless of anything Joseph Smith ever said.
I can appreciate your need and desires to have faith in your imaginary friend whom you believe is with you in everything you do. That's just fine if it suits you. Most people of every kind and stripe need something to sustain them through the wild and fascinating experience of life and that includes some form of religion and belief.
Having ditched both Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith, I've found true happiness and peace in myself and am literally the savior to myself. It's wonderful.
You do realize that Jesus Christ is dead and only your faith in him is all you have. He's not coming back. He's history. Same for Joseph Smith, he's history too.
You might consider seeing the movie, "GOD is not Dead, GOD is not Dead 2, and God is not Dead 3." Faith in oneself may seem ok until one gets sick, confused and tired." The one thing regarding youth is it gets old rather fast.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:Multiple interpretations don't mean that an one any of the interpretations are wrong unless a specific interpretation contradicts other scripture. The Bible must be interpreted in light of both the Holy Spirit and both New and Old Testaments.
And what makes you so sure you have got it right, and everybody else who may disagree with you has got it wrong? Who is to say that they have not got right, and you have not got it wrong?
What do you think I have wrong? If you can point something specific, I can try to provide a specific explanation.
SteelHead wrote:Yes, it's possible Joseph actually believed that.
Indeed, and by making an open minded concession one is then able to gather the facts, analyze them, and make an intelligent determination. The problem with the LDS argument is they start out with the idea that the church is true no matter what and this kind of thinking will hinder their ability in fully perceiving the data because of preconceived ideas and biases. Something like that, anyway. I think you get the idea.
Now that we know that it was possible for Joseph Smith to believe something, it makes it easier to find out whether he did based on the evidence.
zerinus wrote:That is all well and good until disaster strikes, and you suddenly discover that death is not quite the end that you thought it was.
There you go again, making assumptions about what I believe and in doing so come to your own conclusion. Look, I merely said that Christ is dead and he's not coming back -- to mean that biblical prophecy and LDS prophecy of his return in the clouds and to reign over the earth is never going to happen. He lived and he died. It's over. Two thousand years have passed and so will another two thousand and he still will have not returned. Christ is a false Messiah. He is a false god made up in the minds of those who worship him. He is your imagination.
Now to rebuke your argument. I may very well believe in an afterlife wherein we are beings and energy. I believe in science and quantum physics and am open to all kinds of things that we do not understand. I'm fully expecting that I will continue to live as a being of energy after I pass on this mortal existence. I will simply let that happen. Whatever happens will happen. It's the natural course for all of us, I'm no exception.
LittleNipper wrote:What do you think I have wrong? If you can point something specific, I can try to provide a specific explanation.
You know, I don't mean to be rude but I really don't think this is the best thread to be discussing a need for the Bible and Jesus' blood and all that Dark Age stuff. I for one have no use for the Bible. The god of the Old Testament really makes me sick. I can't stand him. He's the epitome of everything I consider to be evil. And Jesus, well, he makes me sick too. The whole thing of killing animals and spreading blood around and then killing Jesus on a cross for sins is the makings of a blood lusting cult. It's sick, sick, sick.
Now, please, take this discussion somewhere else. This thread is about Joseph Smith's papyrus.
