I doubt that you expect me to say that I admire the sentiment.
However, I'm not interested in demonizing Ray, nor in attempting amateur psychoanalysis. (I'm also not interested in pretending that I have any ability to diagnose Josh Skains, or to pronounce psychotherapeutic judgment on him.)
Further, I don't think that a few posts on a message board provide enough basis for a judgment against someone's "general ethics." This sort of slash-and-burn total-war personal polemic holds no interest for me whatever. I leave such things to the likes of Scratch, who plainly enjoys demonizing people.
I might add that I suspect that I'm the only person here who has actually met Ray Agostini (and his daughter) and been in his home. We've been in contact with each other, off and on, for years. I like Ray. A lot. We disagree on some things, religiously speaking. But I respect his integrity, and I believe him to be honest to the point, sometimes, of causing discomfort. (Which is not, in my view, necessarily a fault.)
You are quite generous. Would you be this generous if Ray were still antagonistic towards the church and apologia, and still proclaiming such threats?
Or would he be featured in one of your writings about ridiculous, and perhaps even threatening, anti-mormons?
As a matter of fact, your currently professed stance of avoiding “slash and burn” polemics as well as disdaining demonizing people seems a bit contradictory to some of your earlier words:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 943&st=140On this thread, you shared some posts from RFM that horrified you:
I'm perfectly delighted with my life---I'm not delighted with allowing a KKK-NAZI organization who calls my church of the devil...
Date: Mar 27 11:45
Author: LongGone2
Mail Address:
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to get away with their incessant lies. It's an organization that destroys families, enslaves women, steals money from people least able to afford it, hides sexual deviants while blaming the victims, has turned a US State into a closed-minded theocracy, pushes teen gays into suicide or into marriages thereby destroying even more innocent lives, brought the debasing evil of polygamy to the United States, swore allegiance against MY country, has thought police at a so-called institute of higher learning, lies about itself and others constantly and spends a small fortune sending it's personal professors out to destroy the faith of everyone they meet. And they do all this with tax free dollars which is stealing from me!
Tell you what. Call your brownshirters home, give families back their dignity and money and allow them to live without a bishop asking them what they do in their own marriage bed, stop holding those star chamber jokes called courts of love, come clean with the cult's history of pedophilia, raping, lying, theiving, murdering founders, fire the likes of filth like Boyd Packer and Scott and that Peterson guy...then maybe no one would call the cult what it is: a filthy debachee of a lying carbuncle on the ass of humanity.
Now, would you like me to tell you how a really feel?
Subject: If you could go back in time, would you murder Ol' Horny Joe?
Date: Mar 26 22:34
Author: Anon for this one
Mail Address:
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I sure would. He is one of the worst men in the history of mankind. He's destroyed countless lives.
Why, my goodness! He said he would KILL Joseph Smith!!! Why talking about hypothetically killing a historical figure is far, far, far worse than threatening to kill live missionaries…
Isn’t it?
Here’s what you had to say about these posts at that time:
Were you ever puzzled by the behavior of the anti-Mormon mobs in the nineteenth century?
People repeatedly ask me why I find the bizarrely-titled "Recovery" board so interesting, and I always respond that I'm intrigued by the phenomenon of extreme, over-the-top hatred and religious bigotry. (I also read extensively about Islamic extremism and, to a somewhat lesser degree, about the rise of anti-Semitism in pre-World War Two Germany.) They often seem to be unconvinced by my answer. But I do find it fascinating that at least some apostates and anti-Mormons are capable of such sentiments as those expressed above.
I wonder why you don’t find it “fascinating” that Ray was capable of even worse sentiments? I wonder why you take the sentiments expressed on RFM so seriously and yet are so
generous towards Ray’s
far worse statement?
Anyway, this created an interesting discussion on MAD, in which Ray darkly made this prediction:
I expressed an opinion many "moons" ago on the old FAIRboard, that these negative sentiments could materialise in actual physical violence. I still believe that. I think Dan has put this in very tactful and balanced language, but I would prefer to speak my mind in more forceful language. We cannot always separate expression from actual intent. If the quotes from the OP, which are symptomatic of much of RFM, are any indication, then I am seriously concerned. Tonight I watched two teenaged girls bash up an older man because of a stupid comment he made. When they were finished ten minutes later, he was a mass of blood. These girls were no more than sixteen or seventeen, and with some quick and dismissive wit they could have left the man looking like a fool, but the vindictiveness of the physical attack shocked me. They were only words uttered by a silly old drunk man at the train station, yet it nearly cost his life. Fortunately the police arrived and arrested them. I hope they spend at least 12 months in a juvenile detention centre.
If some dork speaks about "killing Mormon missionaries", I do not care a fig if anyone else sees this as merely words. I take this very seriously. And to all the little minds who think this thread has no substance - THINK AGAIN! And to all of you who quote Jesus, remember that out of the mouth come blasphemies, threats, and bile, which reflect the intentions of the heart. This is a verbal hatred that could one day turn to physical violence. And the more you speak and publish your BILE, the more the sick minds will be encouraged.
And let me have a word with those who encourage this, either by Pilate-like silence, or "free speech", you will have blood on your hands if anyone is physically injured. I abhor and detest the sick sentiments expressed against Dan Peterson, Juliann, or Mormons in general. You have a choice. Speak up, and stop the trashing, or clap your hands in glee.
The point Dan has been trying to make in this thread is that evil bears the face of innocence. Mass murderers can be ordinary "family" men and women who smell flowers and pat their dog, and buy candy for their children. It is the "mass movements" of hate which encourage them to act beyond civility, and beyond their "natural affections".
Call me a prophet of doom if you like, but I have wiped my hands of this hatred, and if you can't see the hatred expressed on RFM, and among many on MDB, then you need an eye test.
Why has Dan brought this to attention in this thread? Because it needs to be brought to attention, so that good and honest people can discern between good and evil. And if you can't, then I leave you to discuss this problem with your Maker someday.
And remember, all you anti-Mormons now stirring hatred and bile against the Church - you will pay an awful price. Keep building your websites of hate, spread the word of hate, and as you sow, you will reap.
I bolded the words that now leave me almost speechless, given the sight of Ray’s utter hypocrisy, and, frankly, incredible
nerve.
So, Daniel, did you chastise Ray to avoid the “slash and burn” polemics, and to not
demonize people? Hmmm, I wonder, I wonder…