Did DCP Just Do What I Think He Did?

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_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

rcrocket wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
rcrocket wrote:I guess that if you discount the first-hand experience I have had in going through the review process TWICE and also knowing generally how it is done by reason of my experience on other journals (I'd say, hundreds of hours), then I guess you must be right.


Bob---

Let me refresh your memory. I asked you how it was that you "know" that FARMS Review calls in expert peer reviewers to deal with certain articles. You first claimed that you "know" this based on your own experience, to which I responded, "How did you know the identity of your peer reviewers?" You went on to state that they were "identified" to you, which you later revised, stating that you "figured out" who they were. Now, did you "figure out" their identities with absolute certainty? Did you ask them? Or were you told? Or are you just guessing?


This is like talking on a blog about Chevy engines with a person who has never been a mechanic and knows nothing of mechanics, but can write well. Good on the rhetoric, way short on substance.


How did you "identify" them, Bob? It's a real simple question.
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Mister Scratch wrote:I looked at those sources, LoaP, and I've got to say, I just don't see how your argument has any merit. Would you care to elaborate, or are you cashing in your chips?


Then I am forced to say that we see things differently. I think it is a very open/shut case in favor of Coe not being aware of what the Book of Mormon text actually says.

No, not really. I think Bushman's feelings towards the bulk of what turns up in FARMS Review are rather lukewarm. He seems far more positive about *other* areas of LDS scholarship, but with respect to FARMS Review, his attitude seems lukewarm at best.


I see you didn't read the Bushman transcript to which I linked you. This damages your credibility in my eyes.

Why? Because in that very link I provided above Bushman praises FARMS and then offers his take on what he'd like to see in Mormon intellectual attention for the future. Had you read the article this would be patently obvious. As it is, you show a lack of knowledge on the subject, even when a link is expressly provided for your perusal.

In other words: you have no real evidence, and the fact that they commission everything remains unchanged.


I think it is pretty clear here who is lacking in evidence. Not clear enough to you, evidently.

Enough to know that FARMS Review's "submission process" is highly irregular. C'mon, LoaP. All you need is one contrary example. We all know how much you love coming up with the one example that topples the whole argument. Go for it! What have you got to lose?


In this case we have already discussed how different journals have different submissions guidelines. One contrary example in this case does not topple anything, other than that the FR guidelines differ from one particular journal or another. Not all, as we have agreed. (Actually I think you are hedging on that now, despite all of your "most" comments earlier.)


It may be simple, but it is also strange, and it suggests that the Powers that Be are finagling with the process. FARMS Review wants to be seen as a respectable, reputable publication, and yet they are unwilling to be transparent about their submission process. I wonder why that is?


I was under the impression you understood the submission process. Is this not the case?

Except that the strangeness of this submission process bespeaks to an additional layer of "screening." It suggests that they are trying to ward off anything critical or contrary.


This argument would hold some water if we had some actual examples of that happening. As it currently stands, it's mere speculation.

And the fact that it goes against typical academic practice. (And the fact that this is a journal which gets attacked frequently for being "unscholarly".) Really, if everything is on the up-and-up, then what have they got to hide?


Again, aren't you familiar with the process? And you use the word "typical." Do you think there are any reputable journals which require one to contact an editor or to submit an abstract before submitting a complete article? IF there are, then your argument is mere special pleading. In this case, one counter-example introduces the special pleading aspect. You use words like "most" and "typical," which suggests there are "some" and "atypical" reputable journals that may have similar submission guidelines; right?

Yes, that's true, and we can also observe what kinds of articles never seem to make it into FARMS Review, and which kinds of vicious smear pieces are allowed to stand.


Compared to what, though? What other articles are being struck down? To me, the overriding purpose of the FR seems to be reviewing books. I've seen the FR laud books written by LDS and non-LDS alike. I've seen it completely pan books written by LDS and non-LDS alike, as well.

Which is what? Please be as descriptive as possible.


I apologize, but I don't have the interest. I don't memorize your posts, or save them on my computer. I don't analyze each and every one looking for little clues. The simple truth is you come across as a woman to me. It's a personal view.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Trevor wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:She's pretty expert at shifting the goalposts and then castigating you for changing the subject, as well.


If you like, you can both call me a woman too. We should all be so complemented.


You come across as a dude.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:The simple truth is you come across as a woman to me. It's a personal view.


"Come across as a woman"? What the hell? What the holy hell?????

You make fun of Scratch, you view his arguments with contempt, you figuretively spit on him, and then you say you do these things because you think he "comes across as a woman" and we're not supposed to think that being a woman is a bad thing in your eyes?

Good grief. Spare us all your personal views. Sheesh!
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

harmony wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:The simple truth is you come across as a woman to me. It's a personal view.


"Come across as a woman"? What the hell? What the holy hell?????

You make fun of Scratch, you view his arguments with contempt, you figuretively spit on him,


Uh... I figuratively spit on Scratch? I must have missed that part. Maybe you can show me where I figuratively spit on her.

and then you say you do these things because you think he "comes across as a woman"

No, I occasionally call her "Ms. Scratch" because I think she "comes across as a woman." Making fun, or viewing arguments with contempt (or what I like to call, disagreeing and pointing out why) has nothing in the least to do with Scratch's gender.

and we're not supposed to think that being a woman is a bad thing in your eyes?


You can think as you please.

Good grief. Spare us all your personal views. Sheesh!


Isn't there an "ignore" feature on this site? You can feel free to use it, if you'd like.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Post by _antishock8 »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Just curious: do you disagree with that one example? If you were harboring a Jew way back when would you lie to save said Jew or not?

Godwin's law


So are you going to answer the question? It is pretty straight-forward. It is a simple question now, it is not related to any Godwin's law violations, it is a simple question. Either you'd lie or you wouldn't.


Tell you what. I'll make you a deal. You answer my question, and I'll answer yours.

Do think you lying, in any form*, about the Mormon church is acceptable?

*Omission, Commision, Obfuscation, Ambiguity, Outright Lying, Deception, or any other variant of not being "honest & true"? <-This should be telling as to why I feel it necessary to be overly nuanced in my question to you.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Isn't there an "ignore" feature on this site?


No.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Post by _antishock8 »

rcrocket wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
rcrocket wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
And how did/do you know that he submitted the MS blind, without first having contacted the Ed(s)?


He had a fully completed manuscript before contacting the editor for the first time, so to me the distinction is without a difference.


The distinction is less important from an author's point of view. It matters far more in terms of transparency, purpose, and seriousness vis-a-vis the journal itself. I mean, what are they hiding?


I guess they must be hiding a whole hell of a lot. Or, an alternative world-view here is that you simply have no clue of what it means to be an academic and publish in an academic journal.


Ah. There it is. "You're not an academic!"

Well, if it's good enough for the JAMA, why isn't it good enough for FARMS? That's right. You don't know. But dang if you won't defend their closed-door way of doing thing... Pfft. Academic. Jesus.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Post by _antishock8 »

rcrocket wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
rcrocket wrote:I guess that if you discount the first-hand experience I have had in going through the review process TWICE and also knowing generally how it is done by reason of my experience on other journals (I'd say, hundreds of hours), then I guess you must be right.


Bob---

Let me refresh your memory. I asked you how it was that you "know" that FARMS Review calls in expert peer reviewers to deal with certain articles. You first claimed that you "know" this based on your own experience, to which I responded, "How did you know the identity of your peer reviewers?" You went on to state that they were "identified" to you, which you later revised, stating that you "figured out" who they were. Now, did you "figure out" their identities with absolute certainty? Did you ask them? Or were you told? Or are you just guessing?


This is like talking on a blog about Chevy engines with a person who has never been a mechanic and knows nothing of mechanics, but can write well. Good on the rhetoric, way short on substance.


Anyone want to guess which logical fallacy this one is? Hey, guess what? YOU'RE NOT AN ACADEMIC!! Ha. I win. Would you please just be honest, maybe, for once on this forum? Please? I know it's a lot to ask of a Mormon and a lawyer, but it would be helpful. Please address his questions without any game-playing.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

amantha wrote:
DCP wrote:Such things can be debated everlastingly.


Daniel elaborates on the real purpose of apologetics.


And sites/boards like this.

Ten years ago on Beliefnet...such things debated everlastingly. Fifteen years ago at mormon-l...such things debated everlastingly. Five years ago on ZLMB (now defunct)...such things debated everlastingly. The debate goes on because the critics everlastingly keep bringing up the same debate topics...as if they were new.

Fifteen years from now on a "cutting edge" board such as this one, the same everlasting debate(s) will continue...at the behest of the critics who just can't get enough.

Titillation comes in many forms.

And the caravan moves on.

Regards,
MG
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