Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

[_marg]

Hell, why did Moroni travel hundreds of miles alone, risking his life to bury the damn thing, if it was "largely unnecessary"? To say nothing of Nephi and the rest of the authors who suffered many trials to make sure the plates arrived in Smith's hands?

ROFL..that is funny!

[_William Schryver]

I feel compelled to remark that, in my estimation, Kevin Graham has evolved into probably the single most tragic apostate case I have come across in my years of paying attention to such things.

I mean, you can go back three years or so and still be able to recognize a talented young man, with an obvious gift for expression. But now ………. <sigh> ……… it’s sad to behold.

Not only has his flair for incisive argumentation disappeared, but even his grasp of the King’s English has diminished to a mere shadow of his former self. Poor grammar, inconsistent spelling, dangling participles …………….. it’s as though the idiom of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ has almost entirely displaced his former command of the language.

Alas, he has seemingly slipped beneath the waves for good, as though a millstone had been slung around his neck ...

[_Runtu]

I feel compelled to remark that, in my estimation, Kevin Graham has evolved into probably the single most tragic apostate case I have come across in my years of paying attention to such things.

I mean, you can go back three years or so and still be able to recognize a talented young man, with an obvious gift for expression. But now ………. <sigh> ……… it’s sad to behold.

Not only has his flair for incisive argumentation disappeared, but even his grasp of the King’s English has diminished to a mere shadow of his former self. Poor grammar, inconsistent spelling, dangling participles …………….. it’s as though the idiom of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ has almost entirely displaced his former command of the language.

Alas, he has seemingly slipped beneath the waves for good, as though a millstone had been slung around his neck ...

I don't know, Will, when you have nothing left but to criticize someone's grammar (and I'm not seeing the same problems you are in Kevin's English), you've pretty much given up.

Kevin's point was the same as mine: once you divorce the text of LDS scripture from any real source (as you have), you've made it unfalsifiable. And with that, there's no need for apologetics. You just take it on faith.

[_William Schryver]

I feel compelled to remark that, in my estimation, Kevin Graham has evolved into probably the single most tragic apostate case I have come across in my years of paying attention to such things.

I mean, you can go back three years or so and still be able to recognize a talented young man, with an obvious gift for expression. But now ………. <sigh> ……… it’s sad to behold.

Not only has his flair for incisive argumentation disappeared, but even his grasp of the King’s English has diminished to a mere shadow of his former self. Poor grammar, inconsistent spelling, dangling participles …………….. it’s as though the idiom of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™ has almost entirely displaced his former command of the language.

Alas, he has seemingly slipped beneath the waves for good, as though a millstone had been slung around his neck ...

I don't know, Will, when you have nothing left but to criticize someone's grammar (and I'm not seeing the same problems you are in Kevin's English), you've pretty much given up.

Kevin's point was the same as mine: once you divorce the text of LDS scripture from any real source (as you have), you've made it unfalsifiable. And with that, there's no need for apologetics. You just take it on faith.

Geez.

Sometimes I think you feign humorlessness just because you think it's expected.

But, for the record, Kevin Graham has fallen so far behind in terms of Book of Abraham issues that he might as well write a book on it.

Hey Brent, give Kevin your publisher's phone number.

After all, you've never used it.

[_Runtu]

Oh, that was a joke, eh? I'm not humorless, but I don't generally laugh at things that aren't funny. Just saying.

Saying that the Book of Mormon translation had nothing to do with plates, now that was funny. :)

[_William Schryver]

Oh, that was a joke, eh? I'm not humorless, but I don't generally laugh at things that aren't funny. Just saying.

Saying that the Book of Mormon translation had nothing to do with plates, now that was funny. :)

I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I'm still laughing.

But I'm kind of funny that way.

[_Pokatator]

So why even bother with the kind of apologetics you're attempting to practice? If the process was entirely revelatory, then it doesn't matter what was on the scrolls. It could have been a receipt from the Spudnik tractor supply in Blackfoot, and Joseph still would have gotten the Abraham text. Why even bother with missing scrolls? It simply doesn't matter one whit to your position.

Will, no joke, I actually have several receipts from the Spudnik Equipment Co., 584 West 100 North, Blackfoot, Idaho 83221, if you are interested in trying your hand at translating one.

[_Ray A]

Saying that the Book of Mormon translation had nothing to do with plates, now that was funny. :)

The plates were only there as "confirmation" that Joseph was translating "something". Moroni walked 3,000 miles so Joseph would realise he was translating "something". With modern French on it, from a Hebrew living in 600 BC.

[_William Schryver]

Saying that the Book of Mormon translation had nothing to do with plates, now that was funny. :)

The plates were only there as "confirmation" that Joseph was translating "something". Moroni walked 3,000 miles so Joseph would realise he was translating "something". With modern French on it, from a Hebrew living in 600 BC.

Speaking of humorlessness ...

Hey, Ray ... how's the curse treating you so far?

[_Brent Metcalfe]

Hi Will,

A few quick thoughts...

You mean like the obvious homoteleuton that demarks the dittograph?

Then you should have no problem answering the questions I asked Royal and Brian:

• What was the specific text-critical evidence in manuscripts 1a (fldr. 2), 1b (fldr. 3), and 2 (fldr. 1) that convinced you that the repetitive ending in ms. 1a is "definitely a question of visual dittography arising from copying from another manuscript ... [a 'mistake' that] can definitely occur when someone is coming back to copying after some delay," and that Will's "analysis seems perfectly correct"?
  
  
• Can you provide two or three decisive examples of scribal "errors" that in your judgment "readily occur in a second copying" which involve the duplication of over 100 words?

Schryver also says that Royal has an analysis of the dittograph that “will be published in the near future.” Where and when will this analysis be published?

In my own view, dittography is a scribal error; and given my analysis, I am highly skeptical that the redundant text on page 4 of ms. 1a (fldr. 2) can be properly classified as dittography.

Brian graciously replied, though he didn't address my questions specifically. Royal's Inbox is evidently a selective black hole.

I look forward to your documented answers.

Whether it's trumpeting a non-existent McClellin collection... [snip!]

Don't you grow weary of such puerile taunts?

Yes, when I was in my mid-twenties (I turn 51 in a few weeks) I occasionally chatted about Hofmann's "non-existent McClellin collection"; but unlike LDS apostle Dallin Oaks and now deceased general authority Hugh Pinnock, I never tried to sell it.

Your only problem is going to be moving this show into any venue with a knowledgeable and skeptical audience -- like academic circles, for instance. [snip!]

... hmmm... I did invite Brian Hauglid to discuss text-critical intricacies with me on MormonApologetics.org (Brian declined); I also told Craig Foster that I'd be willing to explicate my BoAbr stemma codicum on a panel with Brian Hauglid, John Gee, and John Tvedtnes at the next FAIR conference. Would either of those qualify as "venue[s] with a knowledgeable and skeptical audience"?

Playtime's over for tonight.

Regards,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2009 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
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The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown