To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

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_maklelan
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _maklelan »

karl61 wrote:from Sophie's Choice:

"I looked up at the ceiling in alarm. The lamp fixture jerked and wobbled like a puppet on a string. Roseate dust sifted down from the plaster, and I half expected the four feet of bed to come plunging through. It was terrifying - no mere copulatory rite but a tournament, a rumpus, a free-forall, a Rose Bowl, a jamboree. The diction was in some form of English, garbled and exotically accented, but I had no need to know the words. what resulted was impressionistic. Male and female, the two voices comprised a cheering section, calling out such exhortations as I had never heard. Nor had I ever listened to such goads to better effort - to slacken off, to push on, to go harder, faster, deeper - nor such huzzahs or gained first downs, such groans of despair over lost yardage, such shrill advice as to where to put the ball. And I could not have heard it more clearly had I been wearing special earphones. Clear it was, and of heroic length. Unending minutes the struggle seemed to last, and I sat there sighing to myself until it was suddenly over and the participants had gone, literally, to the showers. The noise of splashing water and giggles drifted down through the flimsy ceiling, then here were padding, footsteps, more giggles, the sharp smack of what sounded like a playful paw upon a bare bottom and finally, incongruously, the ravishing sweet heart of the slow movement of Beethoven's Fourth Symphony from the phonograph. Distraught, I went o the medicine chest and took an Alka-Selzer."

I won't write down the dialogue between schizophrenic Nathan and Sophie when he starts yelling at her at the beginning of the book. Or the words Stingo can't believe he is hearing on the beach when he lays down and listens to other new friends discuss their analysis.


Oh, the horror.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Thanks for posting the passage from Sophie's Choice, karl. I think I'm supposed to be shocked and appalled.

Am I right? I don't want to disappoint you. Please advise.

Doctor Scratch wrote:Well, it does show that you made a significant blunder in your reading. I hope you own up to the mistake,

I think the original text is confusing and ambiguous.

Doctor Scratch wrote:rather than faulting the "bonehead" Orem librarians and their nasty "ambiguities."

I said nothing, of course -- you just make things up -- about "nastiness" or "boneheadedness." Nor did I criticize the Orem librarians. The error, if there was one, may have been on the part of my friend Richard Cracroft, who plainly recommends Sophie's Choice, however much you try to spin it. (And of course all such lists are arbitrary and silly.)

Doctor Scratch wrote:It kind of matters, since who knows whether or not Cracroft and the Orem librarians have even read it?

You're really stretching. Who knows whether Anna Quindlen had even read it? Can you prove that she did?

Doctor Scratch wrote:your random guess.

You're being ridiculous, Scratch.

And if you really want to argue for serious resistance among believing Latter-day Saints to the Canterbury Tales, you're going to have to do far better than you've done this far: The Tales are taught across the English curriculum at BYU, including English 381, which is wholly devoted to Chaucer.

Your attempt to caricature and stereotype the benighted Mormons just isn't going all that well, is it?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
_karl61
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _karl61 »

okay, I will write more - from Sophie's Choice.

warning explicit language




But let a few more of my feverish notes continue that afternoon's operetta.

Leslie and I are in the bar of a restaurant called Victors and I am getting a little drunk. I have never felt such sexual electricity in my life. This Jewish dryad has more sensuality in one of her expressive thumbs than all the locked-up virgins i ever knew in Va. &n.C put together. Also she is exceedingly bright, reinforcing Henry Millers observation somewhere that sex is all in the head, i,e dumb girls, dumb screwing. Our conversations ebbs and flows in majestic waves like the sea-Hart Crane-sex, Thomas Hardy-sex, Flaubert, sex, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, sex, Huckleberry Finn, sex. I have turned on her the pure flame of my intellect. Manifestly if we were not in a public place i would have her right this minute in the sack. Over the table I hold her hand, which is moist, as if with the pure essence of desire. she speaks rather rapidly in what I have learned to detect is a higher-class Brooklyn accent, more like that used in Manhattan. She has charming facial gestures, nicely interrupted by many grins. Adorable! But what really gets me is that within the lazy space of an hour I hear her say at various moments words I have never in my life heard spoken by a female. nor do they really sound dirty, once I am used to them. These include the words such as "prick" "“F”" and "cocksucking". Also, she says during the same time such phrases as "go down on him", "jerking him off" (something having to do with Thoreau), "gave him a blowjob", "muff-diver", "swallowed his sperm" (Melville) (Melville?. She does most of the talking though I do my part and am able with a kind of studied unconcern to utter "my throbbing cock" once, aware even as I say it incredibly excited, that it is the first so called hard-core obscenity I have ever spoken in a woman's presence. When we leave Victor's I am nicely plastered and am reckless enough to let my arm encircle her firm bare waist. I actually stroke her ass somewhat slightly and the responsiveness she gives my hand with her arm, also the glimmer in those dark oriental eyes as she impishly gazes up at me, makes me certain that I have her finally, miraculously discovered a woman free of the horrendous conventions and pieties that afflict this hypocritical culture of ours.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

You can go on posting this sort of thing all night, for all I care.

Some Mormons would read it. Some would put it down. Some would throw it across the room.

So what?

Incidentally, Scratch, my BYU colleague Gloria Cronin just published this interesting item:

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Jewi ... 884&sr=1-6

It's hot of the press, and I haven't seen it yet. But what do you want to bet that it discusses Phillip Roth?
_karl61
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _karl61 »

from BYU Library:

Sophie's choice (View details)
William Styron 1925-2006
New York : Random House c1979
updating... Location/Call number Checked out (GetIt)


They were all checked out at my Library too so I bought one online.
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_EAllusion
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _EAllusion »

Scratch -

The point of the Canterbury Tales bit is to do a little self-deprecating humor about how silly it was for him to think it was unacceptable. I think reading and enjoying The Canterbury Tales is in line with general LDS culture. The same would be true of going to see Electra. The same would be true of reading Old Testament even though seriously depraved stuff goes on in it at a breakneck pace.

Aside from it being a favorite show, that's why I brought up The Wire. Sure, it isn't Shakespeare or the Canterbury tales. But perhaps it's on par with a Dickens work taking into account the medium shift. Do a quick google metasearch and you'll see it's a popular pick for best TV series of all time with favorable comparisons to Dickens' social panorama style.

Now there's something I can imagine many LDS being strongly opposed to watching in line with the general avoidance of "trash". Among those who would watch it, some of them probably would be conflicted about it. Still, The Wire enjoys a reputation for being insightful, sophisticated, and gripping entertainment.

So what gives? Why is Electra or Oedipus the King OK, but not this? I think the main difference is that Sophocles is aged enough that its cultural shock value has dissipated. It's R-rated content can be abstracted. It also is in a medium that has a reputation for being high brow. The Wire? Not so. It's not much different than Rock n' Roll was once perceived as low class trash and a major threat by conservative Christian groups (or early Jazz, for that matter). It takes time to dull that. Before you know it, one day it is downright old-fashioned and long accepted as having meaningfully contributed artistic worth. Too bad that is so far removed from when it was a vibrant, emerging artform. But if this is the case, then that's mostly just arbitrary pretension that slowly robs one of the range of beautiful art out there.

Returning back to the Canterbury tales, I think we can say that his silly wondering if it was Ok should be taken seriously by a modern LDS who takes the R-rated content avoiding advice to heart. Why not avoid that just the same as you would Pulp Fiction?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

None of those here who are theorizing about Mormon tastes seem to give even the barest nod in the direction of actual empirical data, and when any is mentioned, they seem to have an aversion to it.

Very curious.

Of course, Scratch himself just makes things up. That's always sufficed for him.
_maklelan
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _maklelan »

karl61 wrote:okay, I will write more - from Sophie's Choice.

warning explicit language

But let a few more of my feverish notes continue that afternoon's operetta.

Leslie and I are in the bar of a restaurant called Victors and I am getting a little drunk. I have never felt such sexual electricity in my life. This Jewish dryad has more sensuality in one of her expressive thumbs than all the locked-up virgins i ever knew in Va. &n.C put together. Also she is exceedingly bright, reinforcing Henry Millers observation somewhere that sex is all in the head, i,e dumb girls, dumb screwing. Our conversations ebbs and flows in majestic waves like the sea-Hart Crane-sex, Thomas Hardy-sex, Flaubert, sex, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, sex, Huckleberry Finn, sex. I have turned on her the pure flame of my intellect. Manifestly if we were not in a public place i would have her right this minute in the sack. Over the table I hold her hand, which is moist, as if with the pure essence of desire. she speaks rather rapidly in what I have learned to detect is a higher-class Brooklyn accent, more like that used in Manhattan. She has charming facial gestures, nicely interrupted by many grins. Adorable! But what really gets me is that within the lazy space of an hour I hear her say at various moments words I have never in my life heard spoken by a female. nor do they really sound dirty, once I am used to them. These include the words such as "prick" "f***" and "cocksucking". Also, she says during the same time such phrases as "go down on him", "jerking him off" (something having to do with Thoreau), "gave him a blowjob", "muff-diver", "swallowed his sperm" (Melville) (Melville?. She does most of the talking though I do my part and am able with a kind of studied unconcern to utter "my throbbing cock" once, aware even as I say it incredibly excited, that it is the first so called hard-core obscenity I have ever spoken in a woman's presence. When we leave Victor's I am nicely plastered and am reckless enough to let my arm encircle her firm bare waist. I actually stroke her ass somewhat slightly and the responsiveness she gives my hand with her arm, also the glimmer in those dark oriental eyes as she impishly gazes up at me, makes me certain that I have her finally, miraculously discovered a woman free of the horrendous conventions and pieties that afflict this hypocritical culture of ours.


Oh, the horror.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_karl61
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _karl61 »

Hey Maklelan - why don't you copy and paste that second section over at MADB and see what happens.
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_maklelan
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Re: To what extent are TBM/Apologist tastes Brethren-directed?

Post by _maklelan »

karl61 wrote:Hey Maklelan - why don't you copy and paste that second section over at MADB and see what happens.


Because I'm not a jackass.
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