Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_stemelbow]

And that's just it. You are one of those Mormons I referenced earlier who responds to anyone who disagrees with you on this matter with something to the effect of, "Well, that's perfectly silly and absurd and how could anyone even think that?" Dialoguing with you on the matter is impossible because you just can't consider any perspectives on this other than your own.

It was proposed that Mormonism is Christian. You took issue with it. I took issue with your issues. That to you means I’m “one of those Mormons…who responds to anyone who disagrees with you on this matter with something to the effect of, “well, that’s perfectly silly and absurd…”.” I can’t help it, msJack. I am proposing a definition of Christianity, which seems very much what dictionaries define the term. You seem to qualify and qualify many statements in order to make it appear the term, as defined among us, must include complicated and trivial nuances. Its merely adding confusion if you ask me, which is in the end, absurd. It ruins words and language. We can probably do much the same as you do with many words, but alls that’s going to do is confuse language.

Not true. I already said quite recently (in a related thread):

For my own part, self-identification is a huge part of whether or not I grant a term to a particular group. Polygamous LDS groups clearly do self-identify as "Mormons," and Mormons do self-identify as "Christians," so in most cases, I'm happy to grant the terms to both groups provided context makes my meanings clear. I suspect brand name control is a huge part of why certain factions within Mormonism and Christianity try to deny the terms to other groups, and this is the best essay I've ever seen on that aspect of the subject: "Are Mormons Christians? Are Post Toasties corn flakes?"

On the other hand, when a group selects terminology for themselves that is misleading or does not adequately describe the point of their message, I may refuse to call them by the term.

What is under discussion here is the one argument that I see as valid in categorizing Mormonism as something other than Christianity in a taxonomic sense. I've been willing to let Mormons self-identify as "Christian" for a long time.

Well good. I’m glad we’re in agreement that self-identification means something. In a taxonomical sense, I can’t see Mormonism anything but as Christian. Christian is a broad term, in reality. It encompasses many subsets. For taxonomical reasons I’d say its best to categorize Christian as large which includes many subsets. There are mainstream Christians, which include Catholicism, and many of the various forms of Protestantism, and there are non-mainstream Christians. Mormons would fit in that category. And it all goes down the latter from there. That’s, to me, the simplest way of putting it.

by the way, out of curiosity, stemelbow: (1) Do you consider members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints "Mormons" because that's how they self-identify? (2) If yes, what do you think of your own church's attempts to deny the term to them?

I’m cool with it. And to be true, I don’t stand behind every little pronouncement or position taken by the Church. Please take that into consideration.

Is a Jew someone who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, someone who believes in the Torah and the Neviim and the Ketuvim? Is it someone who professes the Shema?

What does this matter? Are you self-identifying as jew now? I’m not sure this has much to do with what is a Christian. Please make a point.

I'm not Hoops, but I imagine he was talking about who is a Christian in a spiritual sense, not a taxonomic sense. The two are very different.

I realize you aren’t Hoops and shouldn’t answer for him. I’m merely pointing out that this can be taken pretty far. If we wish to contest the simple meaning of terms, we can grow pretty subjective in our desired employ of them.

Yes, you keep on saying that the Protestant disagreement with Catholics is no different than the Mormon disagreement with the rest of the Christian world. You're appallingly wrong, but as far as I can tell, nothing will convince you otherwise.

Sometimes your wording comes off like Dr. Peterson’s. I don’t know if you’re aware of that or not. No big deal, just a side-note. He writes well, so its meant as a compliment too. Anyway, no. I don’t think the disagreement between the groups is “no different”. I’m just saying there is similarity to a certain extent—and that certain extent seemed to be that which you used to describe why Mormonism is not Christian.

Mmhmm. So you care about what other Christians think and believe and feel connected to them, but you don't care about them enough to study their lives, talk about them, or learn from them? That'd be like someone insisting that she deeply loves her extended family even though she never calls, never writes, never sends cards or birthday gifts, and never talks about them.

And you think I'm the silly one?

I don’t think you’re silly. I think its silly to try and divorce Mormonism from Christianity on the grounds that Mormons don’t often learn and study the period of apostasy. In effect, I think your point is silly. You seem adamant that Mormonism has nothing to do with Christianity, or the mainstream brand of it to be more precise. I don’t know why. Mormonism was born thanks to mainstream Christianity. There’s a great deal of overlap in teaching, and a great deal of commonality. I’m not trying to downplay the differences, I’m just saying its overly dramatic to emphasize there is differences to the point of concluding one group is not Christian (even though they both maintain Jesus is the Christ, honor Him as such, teach His teachings and words as represented in the New Testament and other scripture).

I don't care that you technically think other Christians are "Christians." I technically think Paul Crouch is an evangelical. Doesn't mean I like him, respect him, or feel much connection to him.

Why did the concept of like get thrown in here?

Now pay attention, because I'm about to make my second complaint in this thread (the first happened earlier in this post when I said dialoguing with you is impossible):

Impossible? I think I’ve dialogued with many, and even you now.

I sincerely dislike it when Mormons make a big deal of the fact that they'll technically grant the term "Christian" to members of traditional Christian faiths, as if they're being magnanimous or something.

That wasn’t my point. You have clearly misjudged my intention here.

Mormons don't accept our baptisms and don't even show respect for them half the time (I had a missionary tell me "You didn't get baptized, you went swimming"), they don't believe we can have the Paraclete in our lives (you would call it "the Gift of the Holy Ghost"), their scriptures call our beliefs an "abomination," they don't see our Eucharist or Communion celebrations as valid and won't come to the table with us or invite us to theirs, they publish official literature that talks about how wrong we are and how we don't have the gospel of Jesus Christ and implies that we aren't even Christian, and prior to 1990, their temple ceremony contained an extremely offensive segment which mocked one of our major creeds and attributed common Protestant beliefs to Satan. And we're supposed to feel grateful when we run into everyday Mormons who affirm our Christianity in some loose technical sense of the word?

Thanks, but no thanks.

I don't agree with the people who run around screeching about how Mormons aren't Christians, but I also don't care to be called a "Christian" in the backhanded way that Mormons apparently mean it.

I don’t mean it back-handed and I object to you trying to characterize me as doing so. Oh well. I tried discussing it. Apparently I’m bad because I’m Mormon and Mormons have offended you before. This really got off track fast. I just wanted to figure out how anyone can maintain Mormonism is not Christian. I don’t think it’s a reasonable position to take. I don’t think You’ve helped your case. Instead your emoting about me and my fellow Mormons seems to have worked against your point, in my mind. Sadly.

[_Jason Bourne]

I sincerely dislike it when Mormons make a big deal of the fact that they'll technically grant the term "Christian" to members of traditional Christian faiths, as if they're being magnanimous or something. Mormons don't accept our baptisms and don't even show respect for them half the time (I had a missionary tell me "You didn't get baptized, you went swimming"), they don't believe we can have the Paraclete in our lives (you would call it "the Gift of the Holy Ghost"), their scriptures call our beliefs an "abomination," they don't see our Eucharist or Communion celebrations as valid and won't come to the table with us or invite us to theirs, they publish official literature that talks about how wrong we are and how we don't have the gospel of Jesus Christ and implies that we aren't even Christian, and prior to 1990, their temple ceremony contained an extremely offensive segment which mocked one of our major creeds and attributed common Protestant beliefs to Satan. And we're supposed to feel grateful when we run into everyday Mormons who affirm our Christianity in some loose technical sense of the word?

Thanks, but no thanks.

I don't agree with the people who run around screeching about how Mormons aren't Christians, but I also don't care to be called a "Christian" in the backhanded way that Mormons apparently mean it.

While I agree with your comments above I think it is better to say the backhanded way some Mormons mean it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Okay, warning: I'm going to throw in here and you all won't know what "side" I'm on, but what else is new, eh? :-)

Jason Bourne

What about God and Christ has the LDS Church so morphed that in your view it disqualifies it to be considered Christian. And leave it as just Christian. Not something it does not claim to be.

I will give you a simpler answer than Hoops does.

Answer: The nature of God

[_Jersey Girl]

Hoops

Yes, Mormonism teaches the historical Jesus, yes, no one is disputing this. But, it does not teach the Jesus who is fully God and fully man within a monotheistic framework.

Please supply me with scriptural evidences that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

[_MsJack]

It was proposed that Mormonism is Christian. You took issue with it. I took issue with your issues.

CFR, please. Where did I "take issue" with the proposition that Mormonism is Christian? I seem to recall stating multiple times that a valid argument can be made to that end.

I’m glad we’re in agreement that self-identification means something. In a taxonomical sense, I can’t see Mormonism anything but as Christian.

Like I said, you seem incapable of understanding perspectives other than your own.

I’m cool with it. And to be true, I don’t stand behind every little pronouncement or position taken by the Church. Please take that into consideration.

Good to know.

Is a Jew someone who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, someone who believes in the Torah and the Neviim and the Ketuvim? Is it someone who professes the Shema?

What does this matter? Are you self-identifying as jew now? I’m not sure this has much to do with what is a Christian. Please make a point.

Wow. Did you not even read the argument that I made that beastie cited that started my participation on this thread? Here it is again:

Here is my take on the matter:

Mormonism is about as Christian as Christianity is Jewish.

If I went down to Congregation B'nai Tikvah near my house and said, "Shalom! I'm here to worship with you. I'm Jewish, too. I believe Moses was a prophet of God, I believe YHWH is the only true God and Lord over creation, and I believe the Law, the Prophets and the Writings are the inspired Word of God. And by the way, I'm a student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School," they would look at me like I was insane.

All of the things I just listed are true. I do believe Moses was a prophet of God, I do believe YHWH is the only true God and Lord over creation, and I do believe the Law-Prophets-Writings (Jewish terminology for the Old Testament) are the inspired Word of God. Hell, I even speak some modern Hebrew, which a lot of Jews these days don't even do. However, as a Christian, I have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in all of those things to the extent that I am now best categorized as a member of another religion. For example, when Christians say that they believe in the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one"), Jews usually respond that this is perfect nonsense; one cannot believe that YHWH is three and one at the same time. If you follow Christian theology though, it's not really that Christians are non-Jewish. They're supra-Jewish. They're the true Jews. They're the next step that Judaism should have evolved to but didn't.

And so it is with Mormonism. It is not that Mormons do not believe in the divinity and atonement of Jesus Christ, the Bible, and a triune Godhead. They most certainly do. However, they have re-interpreted and added to what it means to believe in these things to the extent that they are best categorized as another religion. It's not so much that they're non-Christian as that they're supra-Christian. According to them, they're the true Christians. They're the next step that Christianity should have evolved into but didn't.

I have little problem with letting Mormons call themselves Christians. I believe the matter is polemical and emotionally-charged in nature, and that too many evangelical Christians are spending their time arguing over the matter instead of discussing more important things. I also believe that Mormonism could reform into a religion that fits better under the umbrella of what Christianity is. We'll see where it goes.

viewtopic.php?p=278715#p278715

So, with that in mind, would you care to answer my question?

And no, I don't identify as Jewish. But some Christians do (i. e. "Messianic Jews"). Most recently it was an issue in a custody dispute between a Catholic man and his Jewish ex-wife in that the Catholic eventually tried to argue that Christians are Jewish anyways, so his daughter's mother shouldn't object to their daughter receiving Catholic instruction.

I realize you aren’t Hoops and shouldn’t answer for him. I’m merely pointing out that this can be taken pretty far. If we wish to contest the simple meaning of terms, we can grow pretty subjective in our desired employ of them.

You mean you're pointing to positions much more extreme than my own because you can't engage what I'm saying. Got it.

Sometimes your wording comes off like Dr. Peterson’s. I don’t know if you’re aware of that or not. No big deal, just a side-note. He writes well, so its meant as a compliment too.

I don't see it, but it's possible. I began observing his online interactions when I was 16 or 17, so he was something of an early influence on me.

I don’t think you’re silly. I think its silly to try and divorce Mormonism from Christianity on the grounds that Mormons don’t often learn and study the period of apostasy. In effect, I think your point is silly. You seem adamant that Mormonism has nothing to do with Christianity, or the mainstream brand of it to be more precise.

No stemelbow, I have repeatedly acknowledged that Mormonism has a Christian heritage. Honestly, it's as if you didn't even read the argument that started this all.

Impossible? I think I’ve dialogued with many, and even you now.

Only if your idea of "dialogue" is not even reading what someone writes whilst responding to everything they say with words like "silly" and "absurd."

Which is also why you're "bad." That you're Mormon has nothing to do with it.

[_Jersey Girl]

stem

I’m glad we’re in agreement that self-identification means something. In a taxonomical sense, I can’t see Mormonism anything but as Christian.

Would you be offended by classifying Mormonism as a Christian heresy?

If so, will you explain why?

[_Jersey Girl]

Yeah, sure. I'll so dispute, if only for fun, if we can agree upon the points at which Christianity was first and fundamentally influenced by Judaism, without reference to 'paganism,' such that the two are distinct.

Do you dispute that both the symbol of the cross and the fish had been used in pagan religions, and were gradually assimilated into Christianity?

The symbol of the cross, fish, even the sacrament all have their roots in Paganism, as well as do traditional Christian symbols regarding Christmas and Easter.

How's that for intellectual honesty, eh?
:-)

[_Jason Bourne]

I will give you a simpler answer than Hoops does.

Answer: The nature of God

Sure. And I understand this. However the debate about the nature of God is not a simple thing. As beastie has rightly noted the current Orthodox understanding about the nature of God took hundreds of years to develop. And that orthodox understanding cannot be found with the Bible alone. Further, there were many early Christians that held a view that might be considered more compatible to some of what Mormonism holds today. Were they Christians? Was Arius?

So, maybe you need to be more specific. I have some ideas of what things Orthodox Christians believe Mormonism has distorted enough about the nature of God to move the Church beyond being called a Christian sect. But how about you give me some specifics.

[_Jersey Girl]

I will give you a simpler answer than Hoops does.

Answer: The nature of God

Sure. And I understand this. However the debate about the nature of God is not a simple thing. As beastie has rightly noted the current Orthodox understanding about the nature of God took hundreds of years to develop. And that orthodox understanding cannot be found with the Bible alone. Further, there were many early Christians that held a view that might be considered more compatible to some of what Mormonism holds today. Were they Christians? Was Arius?

So, maybe you need to be more specific. I have some ideas of what things Orthodox Christians believe Mormonism has distorted enough about the nature of God to move the Church beyond being called a Christian sect. But how about you give me some specifics.

Sure, Jason, I will give you a short reply right now (I'm getting ready to go out) and if needed, I will try to get back in here later today and answer any questions that you have for me as best as I can.

Attempting to answer questions posed to me, helps to draw out my thinking and I don't know why some folks are so reluctant to provide an answer when asked. (That comment has nothing to do with you)

Nature of God (Reader's Digest Version)

God is self existent, always God
Jesus is God, self existent, always God


I will try to add more later...

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason,

Let me throw a couple of other things out to you before I go. I know that you and I have discussed these things in the past, but why not do it again?

One of the main objections I have regarding Mormonism is how Mormonism views Jesus Christ. When someone tells me that Jesus was a man who worked his way to exaltation, I recoil at the thought of that. Further, when someone tells me that Jesus "work on the cross" saves us from "death and hell" and isn't sufficient without specific works, that also turns me away from thinking that Mormonism=Christianity.

I see Mormonism as a Christian heresy.

Now, I know you know what my perspectives are, Jason. But let's see if these comments help at all to drive the discussion along.

I also don't know how Mormon's square it when they say that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in terms of the restoration of the primitive Christian church regarding polygamy and populating other worlds type doctrines. If Heavenly Father is the god of this world, where are his other children? And if he has more, how does that make Jesus his only begotten?

Whew!
:-)