More bad news for our scripture believing friends

[_Yahoo Bot]

The church's official position says nothing about evolution itself.

The JFS quote pertains to the "first man" issue, and that the church takes a position on. Adam was the first man. Pres. Smith carefully staked out this position and it has been the subject of learned debate, as to the problems with that position, ever since.

[_Darth J]

The church's official position says nothing about evolution itself.

The JFS quote pertains to the "first man" issue, and that the church takes a position on. Adam was the first man. Pres. Smith carefully staked out this position and it has been the subject of learned debate, as to the problems with that position, ever since.

Evolutionary theory, as understood by anyone who wants to get a passing grade in high school biology or above, does not allow for the human race to be an exception to the rule. LDS doctrine, as understood by anyone who has ever been to church, does not allow for the human race to have existed in a mortal state prior to two immortal individuals being turned into mortals by God approximately 6,000 years ago (D&C 77 tells us the "temporal" age of the Earth).

The issue on which the Church officially takes a position---that a single mated pair in Missouri circa 4,000 B.C. is how the human race got started---cannot be reconciled with evolution.

No death or procreation of any organism prior to the fall of Adam and Eve is also irreconcilable with evolution, and despite the pronouncements of the FAIR wiki and internet Mormons, the Church does officially teach this. In official LDS doctrine, immortality was not limited to the Garden of Eden; this entire planet was in a state absent from death and reproduction.

E.g.,

Book of Mormon Teacher Manual (2009)


“The plan required the Creation, and that in turn required both the Fall and the Atonement. These are the three fundamental components of the plan. The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam. Immortality and the possibility of eternal life were provided by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement were planned long before the actual work of the Creation began” (in Conference Report, Apr. 2000, 105; or Ensign, May 2000, 84).

[_MrStakhanovite]

anything on LDS.org isn't doctrine. It's speaking as a website.

[_Darth J]

"Nobody ever flew in an airplane before Charles Lindbergh."

The above statement is perfectly compatible with the story of the Wright brothers!

[_Tarski]

"Nobody ever flew in an airplane before Charles Lindbergh."

The above statement is perfectly compatible with the story of the Wright brothers!

he will never get it

[Guest]

P.S. Under section 2-17 of this manual, there is a special treat for our "local flood" heretics:

Oh great! Now i'm a heretic. Does that mean they'll name a bus stop after me?

[_Brackite]

Modern humans may have originated in southern Africa, researchers say:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/08 ... s-20110308



Here is what Darth J stated, From another Discussion Thread here:

The Church officially teaches that the temporal age of the Earth began approximately 7,000 years ago, and that the human race entered mortality at that time with a man and a woman who lived in present-day Missouri. Not only does this not fit evolution, it does not fit anthropology.

[_Milesius]

anything on LDS.org isn't doctrine. It's speaking as a website.

lol

[_bcspace]

Which one is Michael?
(Adam snr or Adam jnr)

According to the Church, he's Adam Jr.:

Salt Lake City, Utah

February 20, 1912

Prest. Samuel O. Bennion

Independence,

Dear Brother:

Your question concerning Adam has not been answered before because of pressure of important business. We now respond briefly, but, we hope, plainly. You speak of "the assertion made by Brigham Young that Jesus was begotten of the Father in the flesh by our father Adam, and that Adam is the father of Jesus Christ and not the Holy Ghost," and you say that Elders are challenged by certain critics to prove this.

If you will carefully examine the sermon to which you refer, in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, you will discover that, while President Young denied that Jesus was "begotten of the Holy Ghost," he did not affirm, in so many words, that "Adam is the father of Jesus Christ in the flesh." He said, "Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden and who is our Father in Heaven. Who is our "Father in Heaven"? Here is what President Young said about him; "Our Father in heaven begat all the spirits that ever were or ever will be upon this earth and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by his power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man." Was He in the Garden of Eden? Surely He gave commandments to Adam and Eve; He was their Father in Heaven; they worshiped Him and taught their children after the fall to worship and obey Him in the name of the Son who was to come.

But President Young went on to show that our father Adam,--that is, our earthly father,--the progenitor of the race of man, stands at our head, being "Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days," and that he was not fashioned from earth like an adobe, but "begotten by his Father in Heaven." Adam is called in the Bible "the son of God" (Luke 3:38). It was our Father in Heaven who begat the spirit of him who was "the Firstborn" of all the spirits that come to this earth, and who was, also his Father by the Virgin Mary, making him "the only begotten in the flesh." Read Luke 1:26-35. Where is Jesus called "the only begotten of the Holy Ghost?" He is always singled out as "the only begotten of the Father." (John 1:14; 3:16, 18, &c) The Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and her conception was under that influence, even of the spirit of life; our Father in Heaven was the Father of the Son of Mary, to whom the Savior prayed, as did our earthly father Adam.

When President Young asked, "who is the Father?" he was speaking of Adam as the father of our earthly bodies, who is at our head, as revealed in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107, verses 53-56. In that sense he is one of the gods referred to in numerous scriptures, and particularly by Christ (John 10:34-36). He is the great Patriarch, the Ancient of Days, who will stand in his place as "a prince over us forever," and with whom we shall "have to do," as each family will have to do with its head, according to the holy patriarchal order. Our father, Adam, perfected and glorified as a God, will be the being who will carry out the behests of the great Elohim in relation to his posterity. (See Daniel 7:9-14.)

While, as Paul puts it, "there be gods many and Lords many (whether in heaven or in earth), unto us there is but one God the Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships Him, and Him alone, who is the Father of Jesus Christ, whom He worshiped, whom Adam worshiped, and who is God the Eternal Father of us all.

Your brethren,

(signed)

JOSEPH F. SMITH,

ANTHON H. LUND,

CHARLES W. PENROSE,

First Presidency.

[James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 4:266-267]

So even a First Presidency, not far removed from BY, essentaily understands BY in the Adam Sr/Adam Jr sense.

[_Darth J]

According to the Church, he's Adam Jr.:

Salt Lake City, Utah

February 20, 1912

Prest. Samuel O. Bennion

Independence,

Dear Brother:

[Blah blah blah.........]

Your brethren,

(signed)

JOSEPH F. SMITH,

ANTHON H. LUND,

CHARLES W. PENROSE,

First Presidency.

[James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 4:266-267]

So even a First Presidency, not far removed from BY, essentaily understands BY in the Adam Sr/Adam Jr sense.

Gee, that's funny. Here's Joseph F. Smith signing this letter with a big, elaborate explanation of something that Brigham Young supposedly gave only a "bare mention."

The [Adam-God] doctrine was never submitted to the councils of the Priesthood nor to the church for approval or ratification, and was never formally or otherwise accepted by the church. It is therefore in no sense binding upon the Church. Brigham Young's ‘bare mention’ was ‘without indubitable evidence and authority being given of its truth.’ Only the scripture, the ‘accepted word of God,’ is the Church's standard.
Joseph F. Smith 1897

And this letter signed by Joseph F. Smith says that what Brigham Young taught was true (cue Obi-Wan Kenobi: "from a certain point of view....."), while bcspace previously gave us a quote from Joseph F. Smith assuring us that Adam-God was NOT true.

One might almost get the mistaken impression that Joseph F. Smith is just saying whatever is expedient in a given moment.

Just a couple of follow-up questions:

1. Where in the Millenial Star does Brigham Young ever use the title "Adam" for Elohim?

2. Where in this First Presidency letter is the title "Adam" ever used for Elohim?

3. Was this First Presidency letter ever submitted to the councils of the Priesthood or to the Church for approval or ratification, or ever formally or otherwise accepted by the Church?