Racist Teachings Make me Sick

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_why me
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _why me »

marg wrote:
So now what you are saying is...Middle Eastern Jews weren't white..and so whoever wrote the Book of Mormon would not have meant "white" as in color of skin..when that was originally in Book of Mormon. I'd have to read the Book of Mormon for context..because at this point I don't remember clearly the details. But I'm not about to read or look into it further atm...don't have the interest.


White” versus “Pure” (Maxwell Institute)

According to the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, Nephi, speaking of the latter-day restoration, discussed the future conversion of Lehi’s descendants: “And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people” (2 Nephi 30:6). In 1840 the Book of Mormon was “carefully revised by the translator,” Joseph Smith, and in that edition the expression “white and delightsome” was changed to “pure and delightsome.” This change seems to reflect the Prophet’s concern that modern readers might misinterpret this passage as a reference to racial changes rather than to changes in righteousness. Possibly his sojourns in Ohio and Missouri had altered his perspective of the racial connotations of the term white in the contemporary United States, particularly among slaves and slaveholders. He may not have gained much understanding of this matter during his upbringing in New England and New York State, where slavery was not as common.

Unfortunately for subsequent Latter-day Saint interpreters, following the Prophet’s death the changes in the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon were not carried over into subsequent printings, which were instead based on an edition prepared by the Twelve Apostles in Great Britain after a copy of an earlier edition. The apostles, being in England, were not familiar with the 1840 edition. Consequently, Latter-day Saints did not reap the benefit of the Prophet’s clarification until it was restored in the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon. Some critics have been fond of citing statements of earlier Latter-day Saint leaders, who once interpreted 2 Nephi 30:6 to mean that conversion leads to a change of skin color; however, to use such statements today is anachronistic at best and disingenuous at worst since these statements were all expressed previous to the 1981 correction and merely echo a misinterpretation of the Book of Mormon text rather than the authoritative text itself. Moreover, a change in Lamanite skin color was clearly never intended by the “white/pure and delightsome” passage that the Prophet Joseph modified because it does not refer to the Lamanites at all, but to the Nephites and Jews in the latter days who turn to Christ (see 2 Nephi 30:1—7).

But is the Prophet’s change from “white” to “pure” justified in the scriptural context? The answer is yes. The terms white and pure are used synonymously in Daniel 7:9, Revelation 15:6, and Doctrine and Covenants 110:3. They are also found together in a number of passages where they clearly refer to those who are purified and redeemed by Christ (Alma 5:24; 13:12; 32:42; Mormon 9:6; D&C 20:6). Similarly, Mormon expressed the hope that the Nephites “may once again be a delightsome people” (Words of Mormon 1:8).


I think that Joseph Smith was aware of the problem. What is the definition of white? Italians are considered to be europeans and yet, there skin color is far from being that of the Nordic region. The same holds true for the spaniards. So, what I am saying is that the original nephites could not have been the color of the nordic race. So, what we are dealing with is a curse that would have created difference between the nephites and the lamanites.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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_marg
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _marg »

I think that Joseph Smith was aware of the problem. What is the definition of white? Italians are considered to be europeans and yet, there skin color is far from being that of the Nordic region. The same holds true for the spaniards. So, what I am saying is that the original Nephites could not have been the color of the nordic race. So, what we are dealing with is a curse that would have created difference between the Nephites and the Lamanites.


This issue is new to me. And although I've read the Book of Mormon once, it's as if I haven't read it, because the vast majority not only do I not recall, but even at the time it didn't make much of an impression on me.

So..it appears this change you are talking about by J. Smith and subsequently brought forward to today..refers to people being converted to Mormonism..that they will become pure and delightsome..not white and delightsome. And in effect you are arguing therefore there is no racist teaching from this portion of the Book of Mormon...at least with regards to people converted.

However..in the Book of Mormon storyline the Lamanites are cursed with a black skin (2 Nephi 5:21)I guess for not believing (whatever they are supposed to believe). If that's the case then obviously the Nephites (in the storyteller's mind and what they are trying to convey to the reader) were much lighter in skin color than Lamanites..in order for there to be a recognizable difference between the 2 groups. So what color could the Nephites possibly be when compared to the Lamanites if God per the story uses change of skin color to differentiate people and show one group cursed? The Nephites were not likely dark skinned in the mind of the story teller/tellers.

So this still gets back to racist teachings in the Book of Mormon...that dark skin is sign of a curse from God..no?

by the way, whyme..as far as what the writer of the Book of Mormon thought about skin color of jews from middle east..they may have thought of them as white. Jews in the 1820's appeared white, ..and much whiter than the N. american indians.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
_why me
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _why me »

marg wrote:
So this still gets back to racist teachings in the Book of Mormon...that dark skin is sign of a curse from God..no?

by the way, whyme..as far as what the writer of the Book of Mormon thought about skin color of jews from middle east..they may have thought of them as white. Jews in the 1820's appeared white, ..and much whiter than the N. american indians.

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.


The american indians were not black skinned. Nor are the people in central and south america. So, what is blackness? Certainly not the color of africans since they were in america at the time the Book of Mormon came forth. Do you see the point? The indians were referred to as red skinned not black skinned by the frontier people. Certainly they were a different color from the slaves. We have no idea just what white and black are.

http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/redskin.pdf

Joseph Smith changed the word white to pure most likely for the reasons that come up on exmormon boards. White sounds like white europeans.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_marg
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _marg »

So, what is blackness? Certainly not the color of africans since they were in america at the time the Book of Mormon came forth.


You've lost me..why does 'africans being in america at time of Book of Mormon being written' preclude "skin of blackness" referring to some degree of blackness of their skin color?
_why me
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _why me »

marg wrote:
So, what is blackness? Certainly not the color of africans since they were in america at the time the Book of Mormon came forth.


You've lost me..why does 'africans being in america at time of Book of Mormon being written' preclude "skin of blackness" referring to some degree of blackness of their skin color?


Because the indian was considered red skinned as my link shows. Black referred to the african slaves. Since the lamanites are referred to as having black skin, we have no idea just what black and white meant in the Book of Mormon.

If Sidney or Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, they would have referred to the indians as red skinned not black skinned. The curse was not turning the lamanites into the color of african slaves who were black.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_marg
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _marg »

why me wrote:
marg wrote:You've lost me..why does 'africans being in america at time of Book of Mormon being written' preclude "skin of blackness" referring to some degree of blackness of their skin color?


Because the indian was considered red skinned as my link shows. Black referred to the african slaves. Since the Lamanites are referred to as having black skin, we have no idea just what black and white meant in the Book of Mormon.

If Sidney or Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, they would have referred to the indians as red skinned not black skinned. The curse was not turning the Lamanites into the color of african slaves who were black.


Well whoever the 19th century author/authors.. is/were they would not have used red skinned if they appreciated that was a modern term. Remember they are attempting to make the book sound like it was written by ancient authors.

So if we look at the verse again, it is not ambiguous that it is referring to skin color ..it specified "skin of blackness...not to mention it also says they were "white and fair" previous to change in skin color: "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

So the degree of blackness the skin was changed to per the story, is subjective. The Book of Mormon doesn't specify who the Lamanites are supposed to be..but they are living in america.. back in 400 AD when the last Nephite dies. So that one section which I quoted above...I believe is supposed to imply lamanites are ancestors to N and S American indians living in the americas before Europeans arrived. And I believe the writer of the passage assumed middle eastern peoples back in time period of Book of Mormon storyline were white like Europeans at the time in 1820's and had the nephi and laman be white and then God change Laman and his descendants to darker skin...which they referred to as "skin of blackness". And I think the writer/writers of that portion written in the Book of Mormon thought of Am Indians as having a much darker skin color than Europeans and their descendants or themselves.

If you are arguing that "skin of blackness" in Book of Mormon is not referring to skin color ..I don't know what else to say other than the Book of Mormon is not ambiguous and you are simply denying what in plain english it is saying.
_Shulem
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _Shulem »

I guess Why Me thinks red skin is the skin of blackness. But when was red ever the color of flint?

You've been had, Why Me.

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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _moksha »

Look, we once thought that a warm temperature for beverages was bad for you. We learned better and so we dropped the temperature thing in favor of tea and coffee being bad. We have since learned that tea and coffee are not all that bad and so we now say it is a mystery that we must obey.

This directly parallels our thinking on skin color. We once thought that white was both right and superior, so those who were not white must have been cursed. After all, this was a justification for slavery before Joseph Smith Jr. was even born. Since then we have learned that skin color is determined by skin pigments which have nothing whatsoever to do with curses. The Church now condemns racism. Our literature now reflects this with the substitution of the word pure instead of white. Some of the best minds at FAIR now proffer the idea than this pure and delightsome phrase was referring to the color of loin cloths. This makes sense since soiled loin cloths are far from delightsome.

Hope that helps.

.
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_why me
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _why me »

moksha wrote:
This directly parallels our thinking on skin color. We once thought that white was both right and superior, so those who were not white must have been cursed. After all, this was a justification for slavery before Joseph Smith Jr. was even born. Since then we have learned that skin color is determined by skin pigments which have nothing whatsoever to do with curses. The Church now condemns racism. Our literature now reflects this with the substitution of the word pure instead of white. Some of the best minds at FAIR now proffer the idea than this pure and delightsome phrase was referring to the color of loin cloths. This makes sense since soiled loin cloths are far from delightsome.

Hope that helps.

.


It doesn't since the biggest slave holders were the arabs who are not white. Also, it was never about skin color. Many non whites joined the church and no racism existed. The nephites could not have been white since they were from the middle east. And since black referred to slaves from africa, it would not have been missed by Joseph Smith or sidney if they wrote the Book of Mormon. For americans, black skin meant people from africa. Red skin was meant for indians. So, the word black in the Book of Mormon does not mean what it means today or at the time of Joseph Smith.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Racist Teachings Make me Sick

Post by _why me »

moksha wrote:Look, we once thought that a warm temperature for beverages was bad for you. We learned better and so we dropped the temperature thing in favor of tea and coffee being bad. We have since learned that tea and coffee are not all that bad and so we now say it is a mystery that we must obey.


Hope that helps.

.


Don't tell a coffee addict this. Without that cup of coffee the hands are shaking and the head is aching. Many people are now drinking decafe because of the effects of caffeine. And herbal tea is in big demand...the Mormons were ahead of their time.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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