Why did I ever read beyond the slaying of Laban?

[_Tchild]

And I say, that G-d does not lead any man to kill another, for whatever rationale. The HG has confirmed that to me whether you believe it or not.

Like I said, there can be only one...

Since there is only one God, and I have received an answer from God, then you must be wrong. See how easy that is when God speaks to me about you?

Now we are just going in circles.

Probably because you cannot see beyond your circular logic. You'll come around in time.

In your foolish, and irrelevant, remark, you seem to miss that Nephi didn't tell Laban that G-d wanted him dead, so he had better go hang himself. My remarks applied to knowing truth regarding another, not telling someone else what to do because G-d told me so.

No, it is the same. God tells me something that affects you and you have no say in the matter. In the Book of Mormon example, God told something to Nephi that affected Laban. In my example God told me something that affected you. I could come over to your house and force the coffee down your throat and later tell you that I was commanded by God to do so. In the end, I would have violated your agency and used God as my scapegoat.

Gordon, Think of truth and God like the shining sun. You can surrender yourself to it and absorb its heat and warmth, decide to step into its light, but you cannot use the truth to further your own ends. God/the truth doesn't need or want your help because God/the truth is whole and complete always. Truth is awareness of what IS, and that is all.

So, there is no God whose plans can be thwarted, or who needs a human to murder, steal, rob or do anything on God's/truth's behalf.

With time you will see God/the truth as an operative of peace and joy and not one of death and destruction.

[_Gordon]

Of course it is dangerous. It is very dangerous. It is the violence of the majority over the minority. The majority's belief in a set of God dictates is what empowers that group to impose those beliefs and values involuntarily upon others, just as Joseph Smith expressed that belief with his fictional Nephi, slaying a "wicked" Laban. In fiction it is merely disturbing. In practice (muslims stoning blasphemers) it is extremely dangerous. I do not believe that Mormons would act out those beliefs in a real world scenario (probably because they are not the majority power), but they do retain it in principal.

Look at how the FLDS act towards their believers as the majority power. It is almost total abuse and exploitation of the powerful over the weak...all done in the name of God and God's "authority". Sickening.

The difference, is that Nephi wasn't using the Lord's name to kill all those who disagreed with him. He killed one man who stole his property, tried to kill him and his brothers, and seemed to be getting in the way of allowing many generations of having G-d's law.

[_Gordon]

Too bad that Nephi did not have the moral courage to do as Rage Against the Machine lyrics suggest and tell the Mormon god 'I won't do what you tell me':

Great song, but it's about men, not G-d.

[_Gordon]

It is always possible to do find justification that way, after the event. The only problem is that this way of thinking fails to tell us anything at all about the likely actions of your deity in future, since it only works in hindsight. It explains precisely nothing.

The destruction of Israel, and the killing of Jews, was prophesied, not hindsight.

No more than when I laugh at the clowns in a circus I am expecting them to come over to me at the ringside and explain why what they are doing makes sense.

This appears to be where our exchange ends.

[_Themis]

I have said this lately in a couple of threads that this is a dangerous idea. One that sees people being murdered and raped in the name of God. Many of these people think they are talking to God or receiving information from his spirit, and that following what God tells them Trump's everything else.

The flip side, is that the argument that evil people do evil deeds on their own using G-d's name as justification negates G-d actually commanding people to do things some will disagree with. If I say the sky is green with purple polka dots, while you say it is blue, my lie (or delusion) shouldn't automatically make your word suspect or untrustworthy.

That does not help you here. It is still a dangerous idea that gets people raped and murdered every year. YOU have already argued that killing, etc is fine if God tells you to.. The problem is how people actually know God is telling them to. It is very related to the other problem I brought up about how you know you are communicating with some HG.

[_Gordon]

Gordon says he is sorry for us, for our loss of faith.

I am sorry for him.

He seems to not value human life. Not Laban's, nor the child of David and Bathsheba. Then he is dismissive of the lives of his children. And then his own.

Do you usually go about posting false assertions?

[_Tchild]

No, and since there is no objective way to know who is right, there must be a system of human society that understands that no one has the right to claim to speak on God's behalf for another when it involves violating that person's free agency and self-determination.

Do you not see your double standard here? An all-knowing, just, moral, and righteous being can't decide one's fate, but sinful, immoral, and pathetic humans can in a 'human society'?

Pious Muslims picking up boulders to stone a blasphemer are doing so believing that an all-knowing, just and moral God has condoned their actions. Can you not see that It isn't God revealing his will, but humans projecting their desires outward and claiming God? That is why Mormons are often viewed as insufferable rubes; because they are so close minded as to think only they can be right concerning God, and everyone else wrong. Is the Muslim wrong? You think so and have said as much, but you cannot prove they are wrong because you are using subjective criteria. An outsider can see that you and the Muslim are the same in your methodology and that is is fundamentally flawed.

You can seek the truth, but the truth does not lie in behaviors or actions, it lies in awareness. Neither God nor truth needs you or Nephi to do anything for it. It already is.

Stop it Gordon, now you are scaring me. So, we are back to the Muslims and stoning an 11 year. old Christian girl. You do not approve, but they claim authority from God. So, there cannot be only one God. There must be multiple Gods or such a thing could never be.

There is only one G-d, regardless of what other people claim. You argue against truth because evil people use G-d as an excuse for evil deeds. Which is more likely to come from the Lord; killing a little girl because she ripped up a book, or an evil man who stole and attempted to murder innocent people which would have prevented millions of people from possible Salvation? Just because one kills in the Lord's name, doesn't mean it's from Him...nor does the behavior of evil men negate the actual commands of G-d for righteous purposes.

"Evil deeds?. I haven't used God as a rationale to harm or hurt anybody.

Yes, Joseph Smith created a hollywood like narrative plot, setting up a "wicked" laban that the readers would nod in agreement when Nephi lopped off his head, but is that really God, or a human sense of justice at work?

Gordon, truth is more than a book. It is more than words, it is more than scripture. The latter point to the truth, but do not contain the truth. Truth transcends them all. Are you saying that God is so impotent that he could not use any of the Book of Mormon prophets to teach those truths anew? For LDS, God apparently did so with Joseph Smith and the "revelations" found in the D&C. No one even had to die for those, no money paid for papyrus or gold plates to pretend existed, and they contain far more meaty doctrine and teachings than the Book of Mormon.

[Guest]

Lets see..............

In regards to saving Laban by handing Nephi a copy of the plates, something well within the power and modus operandi attributed to god in the Book of Mormon.

I have addressed these concerns already.

A photocopier would have taken away from disposing of an evil man, and the opportunity to try Nephi's faith/obedience.

So Laban had to die so that Nephi's faith could be tested... Seems a little cavalier with Laban's life. Which was probably important to him, if no one else.

The below I thought was very telling.

The child died as a punishment to David...not to the child. LDS believe the child is saved in the CK...not a bad life for the little guy

Very cavalier about the life of this child.

In regards to killing your own children to get them into the ck.

As tempting as that would be, it's not according to the Lord...He must have different plans for them.

Some what cavalier about the lives of your own children, but also tongue in cheek.

In regard to someone taking Gordon's life if commanded by god:

Yep. I look forward to the end of this miserable life (speaking as a whole).

Look forward to the end of this miserable life. Very cavalier about your own life, but hey it is yours to squander.

Am I seeing a pattern?

[_Gordon]

Since there is only one God, and I have received an answer from God, then you must be wrong. See how easy that is when God speaks to me about you?

Ah, yes...very quintessential of you. Anything else I should know, master?

Probably because you cannot see beyond your circular logic. You'll come around in time.

Resorting to basless assertions, are we?

No, it is the same. God tells me something that affects you and you have no say in the matter. In the Book of Mormon example, God told something to Nephi that affected Laban. In my example God told me something that affected you. I could come over to your house and force the coffee down your throat and later tell you that I was commanded by God to do so. In the end, I would have violated your agency and used God as my scapegoat.

Gordon, Think of truth and God like the shining sun. You can surrender yourself to it and absorb its heat and warmth, decide to step into its light, but you cannot use the truth to further your own ends. God/the truth doesn't need or want your help because God/the truth is whole and complete always. Truth is awareness of what IS, and that is all.

So, there is no God whose plans can be thwarted, or who needs a human to murder, steal, rob or do anything on God's/truth's behalf.

With time you will see God/the truth as an operative of peace and joy and not one of death and destruction.

If I was stealing, raping, and committing murder, I would be no more surprised that a man of G-d came for my life, than if the local police and prosecutors did so.

I can use the truth to further G-d's ends. The Lord may not need me, because He can find another way, but it is best for me to do what He wants. The truth/light is more than what you claim.

[_Gordon]

That does not help you here. It is still a dangerous idea that gets people raped and murdered every year. YOU have already argued that killing, etc is fine if God tells you to.. The problem is how people actually know God is telling them to. It is very related to the other problem I brought up about how you know you are communicating with some HG.

Good has always been used for evil, and evil made to appear good. This does not mean we throw the baby out...

You seem to want proof that I know the HG is speaking to me, versus something else. Well, prove to me you love. You can't, but you know that you do. Unless, you're sticking with your stance that you can't absolutely know, for yourself, that you are, indeed, in love...in that case, my previous remarks stand.