Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_beastie]

Yet, the ideology on morality in the Book of Mormon starkly contrasts with his liberal views on the sex industry, rather dramatically. In fact, if what he says is true about the necessity of the sex industry to keep males from rape and sex assaults, then what we ought to fear most in this world is religions like Mormonism pushing the agenda of the Book of Mormon (the book, not the primate) and eradicating access to sex services. If I believed like Ray in this instance, I'd be even more anti-Mormon than I am now.

That is a valid question.

[_marg]

I must wonder what it means of all those critics of the Book of Mormon that like vulnerable women half their age? Hmm... maybe it's more about men being horny and attracted to young women then it has to do with any religion? I think so.

Let's put this into a more accurate perspective. Generally emotionally strong, well balanced, mature intelligent individuals aren't attracted to emotionally crippled individuals and let's add to that to account for this particular case, an emotionally crippled individual at the age of 21, 25 years younger than Ray. This brief relationship according to Ray was not just a sexual attraction or fling, he viewed her as a likely soul-mate were it not for all her issues. Fortunately he was smart enough to appreciate this relationship couldn't last with the issues present, but I suspect his immaturity, his lack of confidence, his poor decision making were major factors for the attraction in the first place. How is it that some people go through life making poor decisions pretty much consistently while others don't. It isn't just a matter of luck, some people are just simply poor thinkers.

[_karl61]

Hey, if this young lady had huge breasts then most single guys (married too) would be interested in her. There would be an evolutionary pull to get to know her.

[_Moniker]

I must wonder what it means of all those critics of the Book of Mormon that like vulnerable women half their age? Hmm... maybe it's more about men being horny and attracted to young women then it has to do with any religion? I think so.

Let's put this into a more accurate perspective. Generally emotionally strong, well balanced, mature intelligent individuals aren't attracted to emotionally crippled individuals and let's add to that to account for this particular case, an emotionally crippled individual at the age of 21, 25 years younger than Ray. This brief relationship according to Ray was not just a sexual attraction or fling, he viewed her as a likely soul-mate were it not for all her issues. Fortunately he was smart enough to appreciate this relationship couldn't last with the issues present, but I suspect his immaturity, his lack of confidence, his poor decision making were major factors for the attraction in the first place. How is it that some people go through life making poor decisions pretty much consistently while others don't. It isn't just a matter of luck, some people are just simply poor thinkers.

Haha. Do you have to attack the LDS Church to be a "good thinker"? Cause, unfortunately, I know that above description fits MANY men that you would probably think are "good" thinkers. Yanno, sometimes men don't think too good when their blood rushes away from their brains. Some men want to rescue these women, some just want to prey on them merely from a sexual attraction stand point. I'm getting a little agitated that apparently the suggestion is that Ray is the ONLY man on this website that is attracted to emotionally vulnerable young women -- cause yanno what? It's BS! There are SO many determining factors into relationships and for us to judge, second guess him, and lambaste him is almost like I'm at the quilting circle hanging out with Charity. Suck it up -- if it was a critic, atheist, or someone you respected you would most likely not say a word.

I'm getting pissed off -- so I'm not coming back to this thread.

[_Jason Bourne]

So now Mr. Scratch

I am curious.

What is it that YOU BELIEVE? Ray has implied you are LDS. I must say that surprised me. Course I am LDS and I am not always positive and LDS things. But you never ever are, least that I have seen. So, tell us, as you accuse Ray of hypocrisy, where is you stand on the LDS Church? You a member? TR holder? What is up with you?

[_beastie]

Yanno, sometimes men don't think too good when their blood rushes away from their brains.

I may have to nominate this for the understatement of the year. No, make it the century.

[_marg]

Haha. Do you have to attack the LDS Church to be a "good thinker"?

I do believe that someone who is objective, who critically evaluates information well, who has examined the church claims and supporting evidence…is much more likely to be critical and reject the LDS church claims than agree with and support them. The problem Ray has is he tends to be gullible and a poor critical thinker. I base this on years of reading his posts.

Cause, unfortunately, I know that above description fits MANY men that you would probably think are "good" thinkers.

Your focus appears to be on a glorified perception of sex and sex alone, no risks involved. You are ignoring quite conveniently the issue of this woman’s heroin addiction which is the reason for the prostitution in the first place as well as other health risks involved due to poorly controlled prostitution. Just as Ray displays poor critical thinking when it comes to the Book of Mormon and his interpretation that it is divinely inspired, he does so it seems when it comes to the women he chooses for sexual favors. Of all the highly functioning, emotionally stable, intelligent men that I know, not one would ever have sex with a heroin addicted female, who worked obviously as a low end prostitute. They'd have to be pretty desperate and stupid to boot.

Yanno, sometimes men don't think too good when their blood rushes away from their brains. Some men want to rescue these women, some just want to prey on them merely from a sexual attraction stand point.

The men I know and find intelligent don’t let their sexual urges rule their lives to such an extent that Ray obviously does.

And that further's my point. Men who think I'm getting a little agitated that apparently the suggestion is that Ray is the ONLY man on this website that is attracted to emotionally vulnerable young women -- cause yanno what? It's BS! There are SO many determining factors into relationships and for us to judge, second guess him, and lambaste him is almost like I'm at the quilting circle hanging out with Charity.

You make it sound rather enticing…”vulnerable young women”. It’s not that pretty. Add to the scenario ..that the drug substance heroin pretty much controls this young vulnerable woman, that she obviously is at the low end of the food chain even in the prostitution business given her drug addiction and is therefore a high risk for infectious diseases and it's all not very appealing. by the way, I’m judging Ray from more than this one frank talk of his. He comes across as a generally nice guy, but certainly one with many issues himself and someone who makes poor decisions generally.

Suck it up -- if it was a critic, atheist, or someone you respected you would most likely not say a word.

I'm getting pissed off -- so I'm not coming back to this thread.

If Ray was an atheist I’d say pretty much the same ..that his overall decision making is poor and he tends to be gullible. I’d be critical of any male who puts himself in the same position as Ray did with this women. I’m not judging this woman she’s a victim, she needed help. But she is a high risk individual for disease. Losers in life would be the ones most likely to use her services. I am judging Ray critically, I think his choice in her for sexual favors is within the overall pattern of his poor decision making abilities.

[_Moniker]

I'm back. :) Merry Christmas.

Marg, I do not glorify the sexual aspect of the above scenario. I was 18 when I entered the industry, and did plenty of drugs in my time -- yet was never addicted and steered clear of most drugs that were addictive. I had men that were professionals, in high positions of government, doctors, well educated, owned businesses, respected men that were my regulars (I was not a prostitute but an exotic dancer) -- they used VERY poor judgment. These men were predominantly married and ranged in age of mid 30's to 60's. Often I was offered money to leave with them and I always declined. Many desired to date me or have me as a lover -- I declined. Did they assume an 18/19 year old woman was in the profession because I was in a good place in my life? No, they just didn't care. I saw many of these same men go to women that were drug addled for their services.

I was a fantasy to these men, as they often told me. They never asked me about my life, never concerned themselves with anything about me beyond my sexual appeal, never asked where my family was -- why I was THERE. I was merely a dehumanized toy for them to play with before they went home to their wives.

Ray, saw more in this young woman than a sexual toy and yet still used her services. I'm not going to judge him for that. Although, I do so wish young women were never desperate or had men that used their services.

Anyway. I think you are naïve when it comes to men.

You make it sound rather enticing…”vulnerable young women”. It’s not that pretty. Add to the scenario ..that the drug substance heroin pretty much controls this young vulnerable woman, that she obviously is at the low end of the food chain even in the prostitution business given her drug addiction and is therefore a high risk for infectious diseases and it's all not very appealing. by the way, I’m judging Ray from more than this one frank talk of his. He comes across as a generally nice guy, but certainly one with many issues himself and someone who makes poor decisions generally.

I do not intend to make "vulnerable young women" sound enticing -- unfortunately the reality is that this description is enticing for many, many, many men. Stating the truth of the matter neither makes it enticing or not -- merely stating facts.

Someone needed to love this young woman. I don't judge Ray for thinking he cared for her and loved her... As someone that was once young and desperate myself I wish he had not used her services -- she more than likely needed a man that would love her without the sexual aspect being involved at all. Unfortunately, as I stated before, men don't think through things too well when their libido gets the best of them.

Well, not such a happy topic for a Christmas. Knowing there are young men and women on the streets at this moment and in clubs while there are men that use them to satisfy their primal urges is not a happy topic -- yet it is a reality that I know all too well, unfortunately.

[_Ray A]

Anyway. I think you are naïve when it comes to men.

Actually, Mon, I don't think marg is naïve only in regard to men, but the realities of life. I wonder how much she actually lives in the real world? I envision her couped up in her study, reading Shermer and Dawkins, and seldom if ever interacting with real people, in real life situations that happen today. She's some kind of fogy, ivory tower intellectual, and even an unrealistic idealist. Real life just isn't the way she protrays it. If she really knew the kind of men who frequent brothels, including her "stable" imaginary man who "thinks critically", she would be in for a very rude awakening. She has to be one of the most empty-headed "intellectuals" I've ever encountered on boards.

[_Ray A]

Someone needed to love this young woman. I don't judge Ray for thinking he cared for her and loved her... As someone that was once young and desperate myself I wish he had not used her services -- she more than likely needed a man that would love her without the sexual aspect being involved at all. Unfortunately, as I stated before, men don't think through things too well when their libido gets the best of them.

The sexual part of this relationships is perhaps over-played. Really, it was only a minor part. I considered her more of a friend. Sometimes we went for drives, or walks, and I know a lot about her family history, and her parents. We did have a strong mental/spiritual (call it what you want) bond, and she said this quite often. But there was, unfortunately, no escape from her drug dependency. She was in a physically abusive relationship, where she was hit several times by a boyfriend, with whom she later split. More often than not, we would just sit and talk, for hours. I don't think blame can, or should, be attributed to one party here. I certainly don't believe that I let "libido" get the better of me, and I invested much more time being a friend. The drug-cycle she and others are in can only be described as tragic, and the government doesn't help by providing methadone for them at a very minimal cost. That can be just as addictive. Even when she was in what she thought at the time was a "loving relationship" (I read some of her love poems to her boyfriend, and she was crazy about him), she could not escape the drug habit. In fact, because of this, he too became an addict. And who do you think sponsored his addiction?