List of things that make Mormonism a cult

[_why me]

The LDS church is not a cult although some exmembers wish to be it is. First, a person is free to join the church. Second, a person is free to leave the church. Third, the church is a religious organization which allows its members to live in the world. Fourth, there is no brainwashing present.

Cults, generally speaking, do not follow the above points.

The LDS church does have a powerful message and a powerful story. Not to mention the holy spirit which testifies to the truthfulness of its gospel. This in itself does not make it a cult but it could make it difficult to leave.

You make some good points here. Except for #4, which it could be argued that there is severe indoctrination, the LDS church does lack these properties of other cult-type movements.

However, when others from the outside call it a cult, don't act so shocked. It DOES have more cult-like properties than any other mainstream religion.

Well, my friend, mainstream religions have given up the ghost when it comes to educating its members about their perspective faiths. The LDS still have their lessons for children and adults. Now what is interesting is that the Satanic Bible mentions mainstream churches changing doctrine which would be right up satan'a alley since they have become more liberal in enacting their doctrine and in changing their doctrine.

What to do??

[_why me]

I must agree with you;
The only diference is; it is a "Laissez Faire" thing, nobody calls me for not going to church,
I'm seldom bothered for money, duties etc.

So are you saying that members of your church do not care about your soul or your person? Christians need to be concerned about their flock. Now mainstream churches can have financial problems due to 'cheap' members not giving tithes to their church. The LDS church does not have this problem. They take what the tithe statement says in the Bible rather seriously.

[_the road to hana]

Well, my friend, mainstream religions have given up the ghost when it comes to educating its members about their perspective faiths. The LDS still have their lessons for children and adults. Now what is interesting is that the Satanic Bible mentions mainstream churches changing doctrine which would be right up satan'a alley since they have become more liberal in enacting their doctrine and in changing their doctrine.

What to do??

Don't you hang out with nuns on Monday nights?

[_why me]

Well, my friend, mainstream religions have given up the ghost when it comes to educating its members about their perspective faiths. The LDS still have their lessons for children and adults. Now what is interesting is that the Satanic Bible mentions mainstream churches changing doctrine which would be right up satan'a alley since they have become more liberal in enacting their doctrine and in changing their doctrine.

What to do??

Don't you hang out with nuns on Monday nights?

Yes I do. But no lessons are giving. We have what is called an adoration where the rosary is said. The Satanic Bible 'condemns' the catholic church but lauds the protestant sects because of doctrinal change.

[_Moniker]

Well, my friend, mainstream religions have given up the ghost when it comes to educating its members about their perspective faiths. The LDS still have their lessons for children and adults. Now what is interesting is that the Satanic Bible mentions mainstream churches changing doctrine which would be right up satan'a alley since they have become more liberal in enacting their doctrine and in changing their doctrine.

What to do??

The Satanic Bible is tongue in cheek and heavily influenced by Rand's objectivism in the form of individuality and a need to go outside societal dictates.

So Satan would indeed (if you assume LeVay was actually satanically inspired to write the book -- no one else does) hate the LDS Church. LeVay does make a pretty profound insight at the age of 16 (I made this same one at the age of 18;) when he observed men lusting after half naked girls on Saturday night and watched these same men repent on Sunday morning with their families.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8602/The-Satanic-Bible

Anyway, what's this have to do with whether the LDS Church is a cult?

[_the road to hana]

Well, my friend, mainstream religions have given up the ghost when it comes to educating its members about their perspective faiths. The LDS still have their lessons for children and adults. Now what is interesting is that the Satanic Bible mentions mainstream churches changing doctrine which would be right up satan'a alley since they have become more liberal in enacting their doctrine and in changing their doctrine.

What to do??

Don't you hang out with nuns on Monday nights?

Yes I do. But no lessons are giving. We have what is called an adoration where the rosary is said. The Satanic Bible 'condemns' the catholic church but lauds the protestant sects because of doctrinal change.

So, wait, I"m confused. Aren't you Catholic? When you're criticizing mainstream religions, are you criticizing all non-Catholic religions, or all non-LDS religions?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Another cult-like aspect is the comment by Oaks in my sig which is now a seperate thread started by Charity. Emphasis on obedience to the leadership and discouraging criticism of the leaders, even when the criticism is true, is cult like.

[_Mister Scratch]

Yes, a requirement. That's good. At least we see acknowledgment that it isn't really a "choice" in any meaningful way.

And what would a true "choice" entail, regarding the Temple, that would make it meaningful?

It would be an actual "choice," rather than a veiled threat. I think re-phrasing the premise would help, e.g., "You can choose to pay your tithing and enter the temple, or you can choose not to. If you *do* opt for righteous path, then you will achieve all sorts of blessings." In other words: there is a real choice. There's no dire consequences putting one's head in the vise regarding the "choice."

Yeah, it's true: you get a "choice" about whether or not to pay tithing, but this "choice" sounds rather like one of Don Corleone's "offers you can't refuse."

Intellectual vacuity born of emotional and psychological desperation. Faustian bargain this. Don Corleone's threat was that if you don't do something I want, I will hurt you.[/quote]

And what, at base, is any different from the LDS "bargain"?

God's identification of the consequences of sin or rebellion against him is a threat only to those who perceive it as a threat. The wicked, as we recall from the Book of Mormon, shake and tremble with anger when presented with the word of God. It cramps their style. It causes all manner of upset.

Well then, given the reaction of DCP and other Church defenders, I must be God.

Mr. Corleone's punishments are are imposed. Our damnation, in whatever form, is self imposed. and that's one major difference.

Actually, there is another very big difference. Something else complicating this so-called "choice" is the matter of "light and knowledge," and the idea that the more you know, the "deeper" you are in it, as it were, the more you will be punished should you opt to go astray. So, really, one could very well be better off my maintaining willful ignorance.

What a perverse kind of epistemological trap this is! You cannot even learn about the nuances of your own salvation before deciding whether or not to "buy" into it. Can you imagine a scenario such as this in the business world? "Here, I've got something to sell you that will totally change your life for the better. I'm not going to tell you about it, though, unless you pay me. Okay, now that you've given me $500, I'm going to need you to sign a contract stating that you will forfeit your whole life if you decide you don't like this product. Okay, good---now pay me more money, and I'll start telling you about the product."

This is disgusting and manipulative on so many levels that I don't know where to begin.

And Mr. Corelone is seeking only his own self interest. God, and his Church, are seeking ours.

This is problematic, since it's unclear how tithing actually benefits individual members in any noticeable or meaningful way.

Big difference. You can choose not to pay your tithing, or choose not to go to the Temple, and accept the degree of glory implied by this body of choices.

How is anything "implied," since, as was stated earlier, you don't get to even know about certain things without miring yourself deeper into the so-called "choices" of the Church?

Sure, you don't have to sign the contract---you have the choice. But, if you choose not to sign, your brains will be blown out. What, at base, is all that different (besides severity and duration, of course) between eternal damnation/denial of salvation/exaltation, and getting your head blown off? We are talking about similar, very serious kinds of consequences.

There is an external universe in which you and I are embedded. The Gospel claims to have true and distinct knowledge about the central features of that universe and our relation to it. This is called the Plan of Salvation. To inherit exaltation, there are rules, standards, disciplines, sacrifices; in a word, requirements, as there are in all other aspects of life. Do you want a degree? Then there are requirements. Do you want to be a Space Shuttle pilot. There are requirements. Want to be a Karate master? There are requirements. One can choose not to pursue or maintain those requirements, but if one so chooses, then, inherently and necessarily, one by definition chooses not to pursue the goal or end state desired.

None of those things punishes the person for choosing not to pursue them. That is the key difference, and that is what removes legitimacy from the "choice" of the Church. It is not a real "choice": it is actually a form of coercion.

[_harmony]

A great point is the Joseph Smith film and the Memorial building. As was noted on this thread, that film is designed to show on the best and most positive things about Joseph Smith. It is designed to iinvoke an emotional response and tears. When I saw it they passed out tissues before hand and said we would need them. And then when you could not help but love the one dimensional Joseph Smith that was portrayed you re told that is the spirit telling you he was indeed God's prophet. This is the sole goal of such productions, stories, books and seminary manuals. Create from bits of the history a faith promoting story. Is that really honest though?

That movie made me gag, even when I was a TBM.

I do not think the movie existed when you were a TBM. It came out about 2 years ago.

Then what was the movie I saw back in the 90's? We took our son to Utah to enter the MTC in the early 90's, and we saw a movie what used to be the Hotel Utah but is now the Joseph Smith Memorial building, isn't it? Anyway, that was the movie that made me gag.

[_Some Schmo]

Not exactly. The Jim Jones cult did not allow its members to leave once the decision for a mass suicide was put into effect. Many were killed by gunfire and I remember one black woman pleading with Jim not to enact the death sentence that he imposed on the members. It is all on tape.

Oh, but they still had a choice, right? They could still leave if they wanted, couldn't they? Sure, there were consequences for leaving, but people still had a choice!

(I just love using Internet Mormon logic against Internet Mormons. It warms me all up inside).