Three things

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_William Schryver
_Emeritus
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Re: Three things

Post by _William Schryver »

dissonance wrote:Admit it, Will.

Dissonance,

The only thing I will admit is that it is a fool's errand to discourse with someone like you. You are, most probably, the single most obnoxious female I have ever come across in my life. Your obtuseness is utterly epic in its scope.

I'd curse you like I have Ray, but I frankly don't see how even God could makes matters worse for you.

:lol:
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
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Re: Three things

Post by _Runtu »

Droopy wrote:The problem, epistemological, philosophical, and certainly psychological, you have here of course, are with the many Latter Day Saints who have grappled with precisely the same doctrinal/historical problems you have, on very much the same terms, and with the very same stakes in view, who's love and thirst for truth itself have precluded the very thought of leaving the Church.

You are either trapped in a miasma of Postmodern subjectivsm, or you must be prepared to grapple with the very real possibility that what led you out of the Church was not a love of the truth, but internal conflicts within yourself between the truth and other priorities and imperatives internal and unique to you alone. I do not condemn you for this, as this struggle comes to many, but simply point it out, and point out a fair account of one's struggle with "the truth" involves a deep and nuanced wrestle with all of the relevant dynamics.

You must also be prepared to grapple with the very real possibility that the cock sure certainty with which you approach Book of Abraham issues, or other issues within the Church are really a defense mechanism (as it is with Brent Metcalf and so many others) disguising the fact that the overwhelming body of these issues are almost wholly hypothetical or theoretical in nature and have no real resolution possible through purely scholarly means.

You must be willing to admit that you have jumped the starting gate with the evidence because it suited the above mentioned personal priorities and imperatives to do so.


Cocksure certainty? Once again, you are reading what you want to into my posts. I am and always have been aware of the distinct possibility that the conclusions I have reached are erroneous. Perhaps you are projecting when you say I am dead-set in my beliefs and entirely closed to self-examination. If there ever appears a good reason for me to re-evaluate my current beliefs, I will gladly do so. Your condescending attacks have never once motivated me to do that, sorry to say.

I am also aware that people who are smarter than I am have reached different conclusions regarding the church. Of course, smarter people than I have also reached the same conclusions I have. So that's kind of a wash.

The only internal conflicts that led me out of the church were the nagging feeling that I was justifying the unjustifiable, that I was rationalizing some pretty obvious and wrongheaded things. In other words, I was defending what clearly wasn't true. That was it. I didn't have some unsatisfied desire to sin. I wasn't a complainer. No one offended me. I just knew in my heart that I couldn't defend what wasn't true anymore. Period.

And there's no need to go after my background in literary theory, as if poststructuralism is necessarily a self-gratifying relativism, even I were an adherent of poststructuralism.

You act as if I have never weighed the evidence, never dealt in gray areas, never given the church and its leaders the benefit of the doubt. Clearly, you don't know me, and you don't know what you're talking about.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Droopy
_Emeritus
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Re: Three things

Post by _Droopy »

And which "relevant dynamics" did you "wrestle" with, Droopy? I'm curious to know which facets of "truth itself"--pertaining to the Church--you actually had to "wrestle" with, and which you did not simply and automatically assume to be "truth itself."


Hi Kish, has the sock separated from the puppet today?

All well and good, but I don't want to talk above your head here and confuse you even further, so I'll save any response for Runtu.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Chap
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Three things

Post by _Chap »

I see that Droopy has a thirst for truth about the Book of Abraham.

Does that thirst motivate him to do a little math?

If so, let him go to this thread, and do the necessary sums to show I am wrong in saying that Gee's attempt to derive an original scroll length of anything like 1200 cm does not hold water at all.

No algebra required, by the way. Just the ability to use a simple spreadsheet.

I am hoping that unlike the apparently absconded Schryver, the master of dialectic that we see in Droopy will not try to justify a mathematical conclusion by an argument from supposed authority.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Three things

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Droopy wrote:
And which "relevant dynamics" did you "wrestle" with, Droopy? I'm curious to know which facets of "truth itself"--pertaining to the Church--you actually had to "wrestle" with, and which you did not simply and automatically assume to be "truth itself."


Hi Kish, has the sock separated from the puppet today?


Hey, Droop---if it makes you feel better to think that we're one and the same, then go right ahead.

All well and good, but I don't want to talk above your head here and confuse you even further, so I'll save any response for Runtu.


ROFL! Translation: you don't have an answer. You never have questioned anything about the Church, which demonstrates your intellectual bankruptcy. That's probably where all your bluster comes from: you need so very badly to feel like you're smart, and yet, you have never been brave/strong/intellectually honest enough to confront and/or challenge the Church.

You've been checkmated yet again, Loran.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Droopy
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Three things

Post by _Droopy »

You've been checkmated yet again, Loran.


I've been here as long as you have, and I've mentioned some of my struggles before, especially with plural marriage, and the deep struggle I went through with in as a youth.

I have done deep, philosophical searches within my own soul on a number of issues, but I'm afraid its probably the case that I approached these issues from a different bias than someone such as yourself.

I also have a testimony of the Gospel, which means that, no matter what the issue, approaching any issue from the position that the Church or Gospel as a system could ultimately be wrong would involve being dishonest and disingenuous to myself at the outset even though I did not at that time have the answer to any specific question.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: Three things

Post by _Runtu »

Doctor Scratch wrote:ROFL! Translation: you don't have an answer. You never have questioned anything about the Church, which demonstrates your intellectual bankruptcy. That's probably where all your bluster comes from: you need so very badly to feel like you're smart, and yet, you have never been brave/strong/intellectually honest enough to confront and/or challenge the Church.

You've been checkmated yet again, Loran.


I don't think it's fair to say that Loran has never challenged the church or considered that it might not be what it claims to be. He may well have come to his conclusions about the veracity of the church after some serious study and soul-searching. I really don't know.

Despite what I think about Loran's rather caustic online persona, he is an intelligent man and often holds his own among people who are more educated than he is.

I rather like Loran most of the time. I wish he could understand that people can disagree without attacking each other.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_JohnStuartMill
_Emeritus
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Re: Three things

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

Droopy, you've never answered the most salient lingering question about Gee's Book of Abraham apologetics:

Why don't you shut up and go get laid?
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Droopy
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Three things

Post by _Droopy »

Chap wrote:I see that Droopy has a thirst for truth about the Book of Abraham.

Does that thirst motivate him to do a little math?

If so, let him go to this thread, and do the necessary sums to show I am wrong in saying that Gee's attempt to derive an original scroll length of anything like 1200 cm does not hold water at all.

No algebra required, by the way. Just the ability to use a simple spreadsheet.

I am hoping that unlike the apparently absconded Schryver, the master of dialectic that we see in Droopy will not try to justify a mathematical conclusion by an argument from supposed authority.


I'm not an expert on that particular split hair, and I'd have to look at what William has to say about it before taking your word for things.

I do know that we have clear, eyewitness accounts from the nineteenth century bearing witness to large quantities of material not now extent. It clearly existed, and equally clearly is not now in our possession.

You may or may not be correct on about the length of this particular text, but the large sums of missing material that are not a part of either Gee's or your analysis raise serious questions about any attempts to stick the present material in our possession with the entire Book of Abraham.

That argument failed decades ago.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Three things

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Droopy wrote:
You've been checkmated yet again, Loran.


I've been here as long as you have, and I've mentioned some of my struggles before, especially with plural marriage, and the deep struggle I went through with in as a youth.


You wondered about the veracity of the Church on account of plural marriage? Where did you mention that? A link would be nice. Also: "struggling" when you are a kid hardly counts, Loran. Unless you don't feel that you've evolved--intellectually speaking--since that time.

I have done deep, philosophical searches within my own soul on a number of issues, but I'm afraid its probably the case that I approached these issues from a different bias than someone such as yourself.


Another devastating slip-up. Here, you admit that your bias prevents you from a serious, intelletually rigorous search for the truth. Check. Mate. Again.

I also have a testimony of the Gospel, which means that, no matter what the issue, approaching any issue from the position that the Church or Gospel as a system could ultimately be wrong would involve being dishonest and disingenuous to myself at the outset even though I did not at that time have the answer to any specific question.


As I said: Check. Mate. Again.

Runtu:

I don't think it's fair to say that Loran has never challenged the church or considered that it might not be what it claims to be. He may well have come to his conclusions about the veracity of the church after some serious study and soul-searching. I really don't know.


He just admitted that he's never done this. He has always been biased, and thus, he has never examined the Church in a rigorous way.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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