Islam in the United States, with Mormons

[_Daniel Peterson]

Uh huh.

I've impugned the reputation of your pseudonym?

Right.

This board is rife with fakery, pretense, and militant ignorance.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

My good Doctor,

Wherewith the barbs and stones you cast, your penchant for destroying the reputation and careers of those with whom you disagree is manifest. Surely you could lesson your focus on the person, and stay on point, good fellow.

In order to stay on point, would the good Professor kindly explain to me why the scriptural and traditional permission for slavery occupies wide swaths of the Muslim world to this day, and why the Sunni ulemahs haven't moved to aggressively end this vile and inhumane practice?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_Paul Osborne]

Anyway, I've got to hit the road.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

This board is rife with fakery, pretense, and militant ignorance.

Go back to the classroom, jack. Get your praise in the safety of the school hall. I won't tell you what I really think of you because it would only make ME feel bad.

You are at the bottom of my respect list. Infact, I respect harlots and drug addicts ahead of you!

Puke.

Paul O

[_harmony]

In order to stay on point, would the good Professor kindly explain to me why the scriptural and traditional permission for slavery occupies wide swaths of the Muslim world to this day, and why the Sunni ulemahs haven't moved to aggressively end this vile and inhumane practice?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

Slavery? Where? Africa?

[_J Green]

Hi, KA

This is a rank misrepresentation of my comments, J Green.

[SNIP]

Nowhere did I say or insinuate LDS culture and the Taliban are separated by mere degrees.

You compared two separate constructs, saying that both are misogynistic to differing degrees, one to a lesser extent than the other. Ergo haven't you compared the two with only degrees of separation? But you certainly are the best judge of what you meant, and it's apparently not what I thought. But I'm curious. If the misogyny in both is so disparate that you wouldn't even insinuate their closeness, why compare them in this fashion?

I don't know about you, but I generally don't take as authoritative statements ended with "in my estimation."

I think it is you who is twisting and misrepresenting, here, and I'd thank you to stop.

No worries here, KA. I was actually trying to point out that you weren't being authoritative, just as Paul O. wasn't being scholarly, etc. This was merely sarcasm directed at CamNC4Me, who didn't require authoritative texts for his own or others' ridiculous inflammatory comments but asked it of me.

No intent to twist here. Set me straight and I'll accept it.

Regards

[_J Green]

Hey, Doc

Hello J Green,

I feel it an unfortunate that you declined my sincere inquiry into your assertions.

I don't suppose you feel the mutawa are in any way formed, operated, and funded by the Saudi Arabian regime within the confines of Sharia?

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... USLH816115

Would you like me to document the myriad cases of horrific and brutal human rights violations committed by this Islamically-based vice squad?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

I remember once hearing with distaste a colleague explain to me why the American Civil War was caused by issue x, and only issue x. No other factors involved. I have the same bad taste in my mouth now.

I fully understand--probably better than you--the issues of radical Islam in Saudi Arabia. I have seen up close and personal the ugly face of malignant Wahhabbi and Salafi strains (you haven't even mentioned Morrocco, by the way). And yes, I understand the issues with charities--indeed, I've followed them professionally for some time now.

But please, if you want to rise above the screed from the other side, at least move into a two-dimensional realm. That would be an improvement. Islam is not monolithic, and the pressing issues facing us are not uniform in nature.

[_KimberlyAnn]

You compared two separate constructs, saying that both are misogynistic to differing degrees, one to a lesser extent than the other. Ergo haven't you compared the two with only degrees of separation? But you certainly are the best judge of what you meant, and it's apparently not what I thought. But I'm curious. If the misogyny in both is so disparate that you wouldn't even insinuate their closeness, why compare them in this fashion?

J. Green, if you'll notice, I compared Mormonism's treatment of women to Islam, not the Taliban. There is, to my thinking, a distinction between the two. So, no, I didn't say that Mormonism and the Taliban are separated by mere degrees. Frankly, I think one would have to be an idiot to make such a comparison.

I actually said that Islam (not the Taliban, mind you) was "much" worse than Mormonism re: the treatment of women. My intent in mentioning the issue at all was to point out to Paul O., who so readily denounced the misogyny in Islam, the ways that Mormonism is a sexist religion.

Also, were you a long-time reader, you'd have undoubtedly noticed that I have pointed out the misogyny in Christianity, as well. I'm an equal opportunity pointer-outer. I also make up my own words sometimes.

Kimberly

[_J Green]

You compared two separate constructs, saying that both are misogynistic to differing degrees, one to a lesser extent than the other. Ergo haven't you compared the two with only degrees of separation? But you certainly are the best judge of what you meant, and it's apparently not what I thought. But I'm curious. If the misogyny in both is so disparate that you wouldn't even insinuate their closeness, why compare them in this fashion?

J. Green, if you'll notice, I compared Mormonism's treatment of women to Islam, not the Taliban. There is, to my thinking, a distinction between the two. So, no, I didn't say that Mormonism and the Taliban are separated by mere degrees. Frankly, I think one would have to be an idiot to make such a comparison.

I actually said that Islam (not the Taliban, mind you) was "much" worse than Mormonism re: the treatment of women. My intent in mentioning the issue at all was to point out to Paul O., who so readily denounced the misogyny in Islam, the ways that Mormonism is a sexist religion.

Also, were you a long-time reader, you'd have undoubtedly noticed that I have pointed out the misogyny in Christianity, as well. I'm an equal opportunity pointer-outer. I also make up my own words sometimes.

Kimberly

Fair enough, KA. I stand corrected.

[_atouchof]

Fazlur Rahman taught at UCLA and the U of Chicago (among other places in the US and Pakistan), and is considered a founder of Islamic scholarship in the United States. Here's his take on the Islamic conquests:

The real explanation lies in the very structure of Islam as a religious and political complex. Whereas the Muslims did not spread their faith through the sword, it is, nevertheless, true that Islam insisted on the assumption of political power since it regarded itself as the repository of the Will of god which had to be worked on earth through a political order. From this point of view, Islam resembles the communist structure which, even if it does not oblige people to accept its creed, nevertheless insists on the assumption of the political order. To deny this fact would be both to violate history and to deny justice to Islam itself. Islam, p. 2

So Muslims regard political authority as their private prerogative, it seems. Certainly it once did, and how does Islam amend itself? There don't appear to be any mechanisms for this.

Given the quality of leadership in Muslim countries, I find this assumption both ludicrous and distressing. Does your smiling Muslim neighbor in his hear of hearts think you really shouldn't deserve a say politically, if things were as they should be?

My sense is that something like this (disappointed) sense of entitlement lies behind the adversarial tone that even (or sometimes especially) Muslims in the West seem so naturally to assume towards things Western, even towards its best ideals ("democracy," "freedom," and the like). Even in liberal-tending Islamic sites populated mostly by converts (like Talk Islam, for example http://talkislam.information ) you find this.

It's hard to get too excited about Islam's "Journey into America."