From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello Mr. TAO,

I would bother posting all the quotes, articles, quips, and snippets I could find proving my position, but it's pointless. Mormon apologists have an endless array of caveats and dismissals.

Frankly, I view people like yourself to be more apostate than myself. In fact, I think you and your ilk are heretics.

V/R
Dr. CamNC4Me

Post Script- Tell you what Mr. TAO. I'll just do ya this one little favor:

http://www.mormon-polygamy.org/mormon_polygamy_prophets

[_sock puppet]

A person must understand the justice and reason behind polygamy. It is important to look at alternative meanings when you interpret what the prophets say so... fundamentalistly.

Please do elaborate on the "justice and reason" behind polygamy?

Again, one doesn't know that he does have more than one wife, so it's not a good idea to assume. He lives on a planet - yes, that is true. But having multiple wives - Brigham said he possibly could, but didn't necessarily have to.

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. ...I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believe it with all my heart, and I know it is from God..." LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269, August 19, 1866.

"Now, where a man in this church says, 'I don't want but one wife, I will live my religion with one,' he will perhaps be saved in the Celestial kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forward and say, 'Here is that which thou gavest me, I have not wasted it, and here is the one talent,' and he will not enjoy it but it will be taken and given to those who have improved the talents they received, and he will find himself without any wife, and he will remain single forever and ever." LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, September 17, 1873.

"Brother Cannon remarked that people wondered how many wives and children I had. He may inform them, that I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly," LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 178.

"Supposing that I have a wife or a dozen of them, and she should say, 'You cannot be exalted without me,' and suppose they all should say so, what of that? . . . Suppose that I lose the whole of them before I go into the spirit world, but that I have been a good, faithful man . . . do you think I will be destitute there. No, the Lord says there are more there than there are here . . . there are millions of them. . . . we will go to brother Joseph (Smith - ed.) and say, 'Here we are brother Joseph; we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers"' He will say to us, 'Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?' 'They are back yonder; they would not follow us.' 'Never mind,' says Joseph. 'Here are thousands, have all you want,'" LDS First Presidency Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 209.

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives with him," LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50.

"The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with His train; I do no know who they were, unless His wives and children . . ." LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 309.

"We have clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus (Mary - ed.), as his only begotten in the world. We have also probed most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time . . . If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom," LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 172.

"If none but Gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives," LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158

"I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that has been revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that it is a necessity, and that the Church of Christ in its fulness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to have plural marriage; bound to; and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing ordinances," LDS Apostle George Teasdale, Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, p.21.

"Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or non-essential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation (attainment to godhood - ed.) as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false. . . . Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. . . . it is useless to tell me that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law, or that a man with only one wife can obtain as great a reward, glory or kingdom as he can with more than one," LDS President and Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pp. 28-31.

"Plural marriage is a pattern of marriage designed by God as part of His plan of eternal progress (the eternal progression and birthing of spirits in the future world - ed.) to further His kingdom and exalt (to godhood - ed.) His children," John J. Stewart, Brigham Young and His Wives, 1961, p. 71.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Queue Mr. BCSpace in 3-2-1...

[_Simon Belmont]

Just that they met. And they did. Gordon reported that Oaks told him to "keep up the good work."

Well, he told me that too, when I met him at a stake conference. So what?

Why do you say that? Do you personally know Elder Oaks and/or President Monson?

Elder Oaks once spoke at a stake conference that I attended, many years ago. I met him briefly. We shook hands. He told me to keep up the good work in my priesthood calling. According to you, this is the same as saying "I had a meeting with Elder Oaks where he explained that he was forced to deliver bad news that the Church has asked that I stop doing what I am doing and 'tone it down'."

Oh, so you have concrete evidence demonstrating that your assertions are correct? By all means, share them.

Do you? If you do not, you should not post these rumor-mill threads from your "informants" which have (all but one) turned out to be completely, verifiably, utterly false.

In other words, I may not have concrete evidence that you would accept, but I am not the one going around starting rumor threads, Doctor "TMZ" Scratch.

I don't know, Simon. Did the visit coincide with a lot of peculiar goings-on in the world of Mopologetics?

It is entirely possible. Why does it matter?

Sure I can. Just count the time that elapsed after Beastie posed the question directly to Gordon. I know for a fact that Gordon was online, looking at that thread for quite some time.

Oh, so he wasn't online reading other threads or doing anything else but staring at this one particular thread?

Look: I've maintained from the outset that these allegations should be treated with skepticism.

Then why even post them? That would be like someone posting known untrue rumors about other people. What purpose does it serve? I mean, yeah, if you're correct to incorrect ratio were higher than 1/149 or .6% you might have a point.

That said, without any contradictory hard evidence from the Mopologists, I see no reason why the claims should be dismissed.

Without any evidence whatsoever that the claims are true, I don't see why they should be posted.

[_TAO]

Please do elaborate on the "justice and reason" behind polygamy?

Read D&C 132:64. Six reasons are given. And when you explore some of them, yes they can be very just and reasonable.

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. ...I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believe it with all my heart, and I know it is from God..." LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269, August 19, 1866.

First, you need to read the quote in context. Second, you need to not combine two separate entries in the journal. The first part "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" refers to men who lived during the time that polygamy was decreed by the Lord, and refused to enter into it. To those who said, "We will pass along the church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught what we to know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character, and office, etc." He also says "The man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory.". Lastly, he puts an inclusion on that statement "because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." For all of those who were not given the opportunity (opportunity in the Lord's eyes, not man's eyes - there were Mormons at the time not given the opportunity for various reasons), this is not a requirement.

The second part of the quote I have no disagreement with.

"Now, where a man in this church says, 'I don't want but one wife, I will live my religion with one,' he will perhaps be saved in the Celestial kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forward and say, 'Here is that which thou gavest me, I have not wasted it, and here is the one talent,' and he will not enjoy it but it will be taken and given to those who have improved the talents they received, and he will find himself without any wife, and he will remain single forever and ever." LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, September 17, 1873.

More evidence that those provided a blessing by the Lord and yet obey not his command (he does not give it to everyone), it is problematic.

"Supposing that I have a wife or a dozen of them, and she should say, 'You cannot be exalted without me,' and suppose they all should say so, what of that? . . . Suppose that I lose the whole of them before I go into the spirit world, but that I have been a good, faithful man . . . do you think I will be destitute there. No, the Lord says there are more there than there are here . . . there are millions of them. . . . we will go to brother Joseph (Smith - ed.) and say, 'Here we are brother Joseph; we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers"' He will say to us, 'Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?' 'They are back yonder; they would not follow us.' 'Never mind,' says Joseph. 'Here are thousands, have all you want,'" LDS First Presidency Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 209.

Because your exaltation is based on your obedience, not your wife's. And her exaltation is based on her own, not yours. If she misbehaves, and doesn't come up there with you, the Lord will pair you up with someone worthy who's partner also didn't reach the mark. And the nice thing is - the person you are partnered up with with be perfect. God is the best matchmaker in my opinion.

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives with him," LDS President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50.

And now you know why the JoD is considered speculative ;-).

I have my own little thoughts about this passage, but they aren't for me to voice on this board.

"We have clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus (Mary - ed.), as his only begotten in the world. We have also probed most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time . . . If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom," LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 172.

*Shrugs* ok, he practices polygamy, cool.

"If none but Gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives," LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158

Lines up with that D&C verse I pointed out "and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds".

"Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or non-essential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation (attainment to godhood - ed.) as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false. . . . Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. . . . it is useless to tell me that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law, or that a man with only one wife can obtain as great a reward, glory or kingdom as he can with more than one," LDS President and Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pp. 28-31.

Well... this is kinda obvious... you do what God commands you, you do =P.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Now I am not the brightest knife in the herd, but I have to ask what in the world is with you people? Polygamy is what it is. It is insane to try to spin it in this strange way, TAO. We were all part of the same church and we know what was taught. We aren't making this stuff up, nor are we being fundamentalist. This is what the church has taught and teaches.

I am comfortable with you having a new take on these things. I think that is healthy and a good thing. But this spin is not what the church has taught. You cannot find a single example of it in church or in the manuals. Your version of Mormonism is fine, but so is the REAL church. To tell us the things we were taught were wrong or fundamentalist or non existent is really 'douchy'. Don't do it. It is rude and disrespectful and lately has been bothering me.

Dr. C is correct in what he is saying. I am sorry but that is the way it is. Be nice, TAO.

[_Simon Belmont]

To tell us the things we were taught were wrong or fundamentalist or non existent is really 'douchy'. Don't do it. It is rude and disrespectful and lately has been bothering me.

When apostates tell us what we believe (i.e. man-God with nipples and a penis who has sex all day with his harem of celestial brides), when they obviously have no idea is also really 'douchy.'

[_harmony]

To tell us the things we were taught were wrong or fundamentalist or non existent is really 'douchy'. Don't do it. It is rude and disrespectful and lately has been bothering me.

When apostates tell us what we believe (i.e. man-God with nipples and a penis who has sex all day with his harem of celestial brides), when they obviously have no idea is also really 'douchy.'

Someone's gotta do the hard work, Simon. Billions of babies aren't created with no effort, ya know.

[_Nomad]

Now I am not the brightest knife in the herd, but I have to ask what in the world is with you people? Polygamy is what it is. It is insane to try to spin it in this strange way, TAO. We were all part of the same church and we know what was taught. We aren't making this stuff up, nor are we being fundamentalist. This is what the church has taught and teaches.

I am comfortable with you having a new take on these things. I think that is healthy and a good thing. But this spin is not what the church has taught. You cannot find a single example of it in church or in the manuals. Your version of Mormonism is fine, but so is the REAL church. To tell us the things we were taught were wrong or fundamentalist or non existent is really 'douchy'. Don't do it. It is rude and disrespectful and lately has been bothering me.

Dr. C is correct in what he is saying. I am sorry but that is the way it is. Be nice, TAO.

What "spin" are you talking about? Do you mean the part about men who were called but refused to take multiple wives forfeit their right to a wife in the hereafter? Or something else? Please explain.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

To tell us the things we were taught were wrong or fundamentalist or non existent is really 'douchy'. Don't do it. It is rude and disrespectful and lately has been bothering me.

When apostates tell us what we believe (i.e. man-God with nipples and a penis who has sex all day with his harem of celestial brides), when they obviously have no idea is also really 'douchy.'

We are Mormon, too.