Mormonism not Christian...

[Guest]

Is it alright if we take these 1 at a time?

Heresies are addressed as they arise, which is not PR but addressing a heresy. To be a heretic, in Catholicism, you have to first be a Catholic.

We're not talking about Catholicism, we're talking about Christianity.

[_lulu]

Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.

Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?

[Guest]

Quick review: Definition of terms-- Christianity with a Gnostic flavor is mysticism. St. Clement in Stromata is very positive about Christianity with a Gnostic flavor, and uses the term freely, while criticizing the Gnostics by school, who go too far. St. Iraenaus, however, uses the term Gnostic for those who go too far, while (I think) saying nothing about mysticism.

I prefer to delineate. Gnosticism crosses the boundary. Mysticism does not. And few use the term Gnostic in a pejorative sense. It may be more acceptable to Mormons, and also frees them from correlation, and, as individuals, to drift towards mainstream Christianity.

[_madeleine]

Is it all right if we take these 1 at a time?

Heresies are addressed as they arise, which is not PR but addressing a heresy. To be a heretic, in Catholicism, you have to first be a Catholic.

We're not talking about Catholicism, we're talking about Christianity.

You're the one who asked I go to classic definitions, which are all: Catholic. If you want something more recent, I don't know how to address what you are looking for. How does a Protestant define heresy? I haven no idea, since, they are living in their own heresies.

Comes back to MCB saying, it's a matter of degree. Mainline Protestants have their heresies, but none major enough that causes them to be of a different faith. Mormons have their heretical teachings, that they have borrowed, and non-Christian teachings that have nothing to do with Christianity, at all.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph 4:5-6)

One Lord.
One faith.
One baptism.
One God.

We take those four things seriously when looking at other religions. Mormonism isn't of the same Lord, faith, baptism or God. Mainline Protestants are. The root error, being One God. Mormons aren't worshipping the same God that Christians are. That fact informs everything else about what is taught and believed.

A relativistic view isn't possible from a Catholic POV. Mainly, when I see arguments for viewing Mormonism as a Christian religion, it is asking two things. 1) To take a relativistic view and/or 2) to reduce the meaning of Christian to a level of absurdity. To the point that even an atheist who views Jesus Christ in a positive manner would be considered "Christian".

Everyone knows atheists are infidels.

[_MCB]

Since Catholicism was the norm for 1500 years, to use it as the gold standard is natural. Although, of course, Maddy and I also have the other reason.

[_lulu]

You're the one who asked I go to classic definitions, which are all: Catholic.

You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?

[_lulu]

Quick review: Definition of terms-- Christianity with a Gnostic flavor is mysticism. St. Clement in Stromata is very positive about Christianity with a Gnostic flavor, and uses the term freely, while criticizing the Gnostics by school, who go too far. St. Iraenaus, however, uses the term Gnostic for those who go too far, while (I think) saying nothing about mysticism.

I prefer to delineate. Gnosticism crosses the boundary. Mysticism does not. And few use the term Gnostic in a pejorative sense. It may be more acceptable to Mormons, and also frees them from correlation, and, as individuals, to drift towards mainstream Christianity.

All of which says nothing about whether Gnostics were Christians, which was the question.

[_MCB]

You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?

Double first cousins.

[_lulu]

You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?

Double first cousins.

If madeleine thinks that the terms are Roman Catholic to the exclusion of Orthodoxy or the Church of the East, then I think I'm dealing with a Southern Baptist of Roman Catholic and I have to say that I don't have much patience for that. The terms are Christian.

[_MCB]

I've worked with maddy long enough on two boards to know what she would say about that. I will let her speak for herself.