A Scenario for our Male Apologists to Consider...

[_KevinSim]

And how do you know he was speaking as a Prophet?

I consider every section of the Doctrine & Covenants to be things that Joseph Smith said while speaking as a prophet. If he hadn't been speaking as a prophet then he would not have let it get into that book of scripture. Take a look at Do&Co 131:1-2.

[_KevinSim]

Also, not everyone wants to raise kids or serve a mission.

Not everyone wants sex. So what's your point?

[_just me]

Also, not everyone wants to raise kids or serve a mission.

Not everyone wants sex. So what's your point?

Pretty sure that my point was there is no need for polygamy. What was yours?

[_madeleine]

And....still lost me.

I'm not trying to evade. Just, a comparison of death to monogamy is not something I'm getting.

Okay, let me see if I can explain it better. We're talking about two commandments, both mentioned in Exodus 20. (1) Thou shalt not kill. (2) Thou shalt not commit adultery. You seem to think that polygamy is equivalent to committing adultery. I don't agree with that, but that's no matter.

God commanded us not to kill, and yet sometimes God kills, and sometimes God commands people in the Old Testament to kill. So the commandment not to kill is not hard and fast. Even though God commanded us not to kill, sometimes He wants us to kill.

How then do you know that the commandment to not commit adultery is hard and fast? If there can be some wiggle room on the commandment not to kill, why can't there be some wiggle room (at God's discretion) on the commandment to not commit adultery?

The bottom line is that if God can require some people to kill, even though He said, "Thou shalt not kill," then surely God can command Joseph Smith to marry women other than Emma. Why is it that God should have the freedom to command some people to kill, and yet not have the freedom to tell Smith and others to take additional wives?

Thanks for the explanation.

I see a difference, as I've already said, God is the author of our lives. Our lives belong to him. Murder is a sin because it is taking something that belongs to God, alone. It isn't possible for God to murder.

So now I'm sitting here, trying to think how marriage has anything at all to do murder.

God has never commanded polygamy. To say, "I can practice X", whatever it is, because one thinks God commands , is risky business. Humans are extremely adept at self-deception. My own personal experience is, left to my own devices the lines of good/bad become very blurred. I don't favor accepting "God said I can", when all indications are, God said "no you can't". Sketchy claims going on there, to me.

To the comments of God ordering the killing of innocent children. I can't say I've seen a satisfactory answer to this paradox. Including the angry-at-God-answer...he must be one SoB....not satisfactory, in light of scripture as a whole. The answer of, God is the authority, and can and did order the taking of innocent lives, seemingly contradicts Jesus saying, we shouldn't block children from coming to him. And then there is Catholic teachings which is clear, God is not the author of evil. Some say it "seems" God commanded the killing of innocents, but can up with 2 or 3 reasons that show the seeming is inaccurate. I can't say I'm on board with those explanations either. Allegorical stance, seems like the lazy way out. Pious fable meant to teach certain consequences in a very stark manner, I might go with if it were a more ancient story. Bible errancy, isn't a possibility if you believe it is the inspired Word of God.

I'm a "don't know" on this question.

[_Spektical]

KevinSim: prepare for disappointment. You may have to share your wife with several thousand other Asian male babies in the CK. Damn that auto-exaltation doctrine for the kiddos...

Spektical, are you saying that over the mentioned time period (400 BCE to 1950 CE) there were 20 billion male babies born and only 18 billion female babies born? Or that the birth rate of males is closer to matching the birth rate of females, and that over the course of the human race, after all the male babies died, if you add up all the gaps between the genders it comes to 2 to 4 billion?

The author of that article explains his methodology clearly enough. I don't know what clarification I could provide that it doesn't already offer. It appears that he tried to keep his estimates conservative to avoid extreme results. Even so, he ends up with lots of surplus male babies up in heaven. They get automatic celestial status, so get ready to share.

[_Zelder]

A revelation came from the Lord that your cherished beloved bride would be required to take another husband. Not only were you to support her, and approve of this, but you were to also be a supportive "brother husband" to this man who would share physical and emotional intimacies with your wife, who is your best friend, lover, and life partner. This "brother husband" would also be sharing your wife's bed, fathering her children, making life decisions with her.

And if you show any sign of jealousy, you are merely told to "suck it up" by other Church members. You just don't understand true faithfulness, and are simply weak. "Someday, you will understand what a blessed commandment this is, and it will all become clear to you."

If you dare....really put yourself in this position. Don't simply dismiss it because it is not the current reality.

Does this at least give you a glimpse as to why accepting plural marriage as an eternal law would be difficult for faithful LDS women to understand or deal with?

I would really appreciate your serious thoughts and discussion on this matter.

I'm new to this thread. I don't feel like reading through the whole thing.

Liz, this is a fair question. Especially considering the reality of Smith did in fact marry several women with living husbands. I don't get particularly excited over the idea of sharing my wife. It really helps bring empathy for the women who protest against polygamy. If polygamy is ever legalized I think women should be allowed multiple husbands. It's only fair.

One reality we need to accept is that some people feel the opposite of jealousy. Some people feel compersion and they want to share their spouse. I think it's pretty normal and common. Some men would (and do) get excited over the idea of sharing their wives. Isn't this why some people swing? They want to share!

If I felt like I had to share my wife I might be able to under two conditions.

1. I would have to feel like he is my best friend and sharing with him is not threatening or competitive.
2. He has to have a good job.

Under these criteria, who knows, I might even learn to enjoy sharing!

[_LDSToronto]

Okay, let me see if I can explain it better. We're talking about two commandments, both mentioned in Exodus 20. (1) Thou shalt not kill. (2) Thou shalt not commit adultery. You seem to think that polygamy is equivalent to committing adultery. I don't agree with that, but that's no matter.

God commanded us not to kill, and yet sometimes God kills, and sometimes God commands people in the Old Testament to kill. So the commandment not to kill is not hard and fast. Even though God commanded us not to kill, sometimes He wants us to kill.

How then do you know that the commandment to not commit adultery is hard and fast? If there can be some wiggle room on the commandment not to kill, why can't there be some wiggle room (at God's discretion) on the commandment to not commit adultery?

The bottom line is that if God can require some people to kill, even though He said, "Thou shalt not kill," then surely God can command Joseph Smith to marry women other than Emma. Why is it that God should have the freedom to command some people to kill, and yet not have the freedom to tell Smith and others to take additional wives?

Thanks for the explanation.

I see a difference, as I've already said, God is the author of our lives. Our lives belong to him. Murder is a sin because it is taking something that belongs to God, alone. It isn't possible for God to murder.

So now I'm sitting here, trying to think how marriage has anything at all to do murder.

God has never commanded polygamy. To say, "I can practice X", whatever it is, because one thinks God commands , is risky business. Humans are extremely adept at self-deception. My own personal experience is, left to my own devices the lines of good/bad become very blurred. I don't favor accepting "God said I can", when all indications are, God said "no you can't". Sketchy claims going on there, to me.

Hold up. Madeleine, marriage had nothing to do with murder, but that isn't the question. The question is, and always has been, if God can, and has, sidestepped his own commandment with regard to murder, how is it implausible that he wouldn't set aside another of his commandments, such as 'thou shalt not commit adultery'? And, before you say polygamy is adultery, why is it not possible for God to say polygamy is not adultery? After all, God-ordered killing is not murder, right?

You seem to think this is an unlikely scenario, but to me, and others, it seems very likely, given God has a track record of setting aside the murder commandment, and even approving of concubines.

H.

[_Bond James Bond]

This list is not meant to be exhaustive; it's just what I could think of on short notice; I reserve the right to come back and add more in the future.

1. Sleeping together. Sex is fine, but I kind of like just sleeping with my wife, waking up next to her in the morning.

2. Raising kids.

3. Serving retirement missions.

4. Any of a number of things that could only be accomplished by two people who have committed to staying with each other for the rest of eternity. (Friends are good, but it's always understood that a friend could opt to cross the country if s/he needed to, regardless of what her/his friend thinks this friend should do.)

Those things could be accomplished by two gayz.

[_madeleine]

Thanks for the explanation.

I see a difference, as I've already said, God is the author of our lives. Our lives belong to him. Murder is a sin because it is taking something that belongs to God, alone. It isn't possible for God to murder.

So now I'm sitting here, trying to think how marriage has anything at all to do murder.

God has never commanded polygamy. To say, "I can practice X", whatever it is, because one thinks God commands , is risky business. Humans are extremely adept at self-deception. My own personal experience is, left to my own devices the lines of good/bad become very blurred. I don't favor accepting "God said I can", when all indications are, God said "no you can't". Sketchy claims going on there, to me.

Hold up. Madeleine, marriage had nothing to do with murder, but that isn't the question. The question is, and always has been, if God can, and has, sidestepped his own commandment with regard to murder,

Can't say I'm in agreement with your assessment.

how is it implausible that he wouldn't set aside another of his commandments, such as 'thou shalt not commit adultery'? And, before you say polygamy is adultery, why is it not possible for God to say polygamy is not adultery? After all, God-ordered killing is not murder, right?

Because God is not fickle. Or, maybe the Mormon God is. God is not the author of sin, and does not command sin. Very clearly explained in the Bible.

You seem to think this is an unlikely scenario, but to me, and others, it seems very likely, given God has a track record of setting aside the murder commandment, and even approving of concubines.

H.

I'd say, humans have a tendency to put themselves at the center. To talk themselves into believing sin is not really sin. "God is OK with it this time." Especially in the Mormon context of "feeling". Sin doesn't always feel bad.

Self-deception. It does exist in the Bible stories. Humans are human. God is perfect. What I see are people trying to ascribe human frailty to God. Which, is understandable in a Mormon context, but it is not in a Christian context.

[_SteelHead]

The Bible also teaches where there is no law given there is no sin. Rom 4:15 and 5:13. So is there an express commandment against polygamy?