John Gee, Historian

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_Chap
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Chap »

ldsfaqs wrote: Professionals are professionals. They don't all of a sudden become stupid when they study LDS subjects, especially LDS ones don't.


There, it appears our views differ. By the way, I don't think John Gee becomes 'stupid' when he writes on subject related to his religion. It's worse than that. See my post above.

ldsfaqs wrote:Did you know that non-LDS scholars and then LDS scholars have found that several of Joseph's interpretations of the Facsimilee images are in fact HISTORICALLY VALID interpretations and usages, having been found in history, and not just found, but relate to Abraham, etc.? Thus, Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimilees, he was recieving revelation of a truth.


Please cite scholarship by a non-LDS scholar published in a professional peer-reviewed journal agreeing that "Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimiles, he was receiving revelation of a truth".
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Kishkumen »

ldsfaqs must be some kind of bad joke.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

ldsfaqs wrote:She understood the distinction..... as well as the anti-mormons then, why don't you all?

Well, to be fair, it's understandable why some wouldn't recognize the distinction. After all, some of Joseph's "spiritual" wives didn't seem to understand the distinction either.

[Edited to fix typo.]
Last edited by Reflexzero on Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Molok
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Molok »

Tobin wrote:I understand what Symmachus is saying just fine. What you don't seem to be understanding is why I don't consider it a mistake. Symmachus is claiming it is a mistake because the translators didn't use a 14/13th century BC understanding of a cognate word. I'm stating it isn't a mistake because language (and cognate words in particular) evolve over time and the meaning can change.


I don't think I've ever heard of a King James Only Mormon before. Tobin, you are one of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
_Tobin
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Tobin »

Molok wrote:
Tobin wrote:I understand what Symmachus is saying just fine. What you don't seem to be understanding is why I don't consider it a mistake. Symmachus is claiming it is a mistake because the translators didn't use a 14/13th century BC understanding of a cognate word. I'm stating it isn't a mistake because language (and cognate words in particular) evolve over time and the meaning can change.

I don't think I've ever heard of a King James Only Mormon before. Tobin, you are one of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Then you don't understand my position. I'm not a King James Only anything. I just happen to think the King James Bible is a pretty good English translation for what it is and that most errors that critics claim are part of the KJB aren't really errors. Translation is more nuanced and complex than that. For example, is it an error if a translation doesn't fully capture the meaning of any particular phrase? I doubt it. Many things that are meaningful in one language, aren't as meaningful in another if translated word-for-word. And if you try to convey the whole meaning, that may take many paragraphs or even pages of text to inform the reader of why some phrase has a particular meaning. I think if you wanted a perfect translation of the Bible into English, it would take many volumes to do it and even that may not be enough to present the reader with an adequate background.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_ldsfaqs
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Chap wrote:Please cite scholarship by a non-LDS scholar published in a professional peer-reviewed journal agreeing that "Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimiles, he was receiving revelation of a truth".


The non-LDS scholar wasn't studying Mormonism, they were studying Egyptology.
It's LDS however who saw that the new found information apply's to what Joseph said, as evidence of his being right in some instances.
Also, LDS scholars such as Gee and others (among all the sciences) have discovered many other evidences on many subjects and many aspects of Mormonism.

Take this video for example, it shows the Book of Mormon actually being verified true by the Sciences, not false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMjNCFcG4-o
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_ldsfaqs
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:She understood the distinction..... as well as the anti-mormons then, why don't you all?

Well, to be fair, it's understandable why some wouldn't recongnize the distinction. After all, some of Joseph's "spiritual" wives didn't seem to understand the distinction either.


That must mean Bill Cosby, Herman Cain etc. also is guilty?
It's a known phenomenum with women to claim sexual related things that are not true from famous people, for attention or otherwise.

It may be true that at some point Joseph had relations with some of his "wives", but we really don't know.
We also don't know "when" if so, so calling him a liar is also presumptuous. He may not have been lying at the time asked such things.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

ldsfaqs wrote:That must mean Bill Cosby, Herman Cain etc. also is guilty?

No. Not sure how you made that leap.
It's a known phenomenum with women to claim sexual related things that are not true from famous people, for attention or otherwise.

It may be true that at some point Joseph had relations with some of his "wives", but we really don't know.
We also don't know "when" if so, so calling him a liar is also presumptuous. He may not have been lying at the time asked such things.

So, you believe that the faithful LDS women, who signed affidavits at the request of Joseph F. Smith, were just trying to get attention?
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Symmachus
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Symmachus »

Gadianton wrote:This may mean that his simplistic view of the Bible contrasts with a deeply, deeply, deeply nuanced version of Egyptology?...On the one hand, the Bible in plain KJV English can be proof texted to serve Mormon theology with all the cultural shaping doing work in the background (as symmachus mentioned elsewhere) whereas Egyptology, this totally alien domain, needs an incredible amount of relativism to soften it up, and make ancient Egypt look like the Holladay area.


Hi Gadianton,

That's the impression I get from what I have read so far of this review, especially in comparison to his approaches in the Bokovoy exchange earlier this year and his blogging about early Mormon history.

Typical of the FARMSian book review, I am 15 pages into the "review", and although John Gee in the first two pages questions Ashment's honesty and competence and calls the Tanners "anti-Mormon," he has not yet even told us what the hell the book he is reviewing contains. All I know is that it has something to do with magical papyri containing the name Abraham, information I could get from the title, but he doesn't lay out their arguments in the slightest--although, he keeps saying, they're wrong, whatever they are--so I have to piece together what their arguments are from Gee's theoretical musings which quickly make the work under review recede into the background. But, whatever that argument might be, there is a whole lot of softening up, as you put it, to prepare us for the fact that so little can actually be known for certain in Egyptology (references to famous critics of positivism like Karl Popper, Thomas Kuhn, Peter Novick more than a few times in this "review" so far, and skimming along I see he quotes a more obscure but probably more significant critic for him, a theo-bureaucrat named Bruce McConkie). So, yeah, we need a sophisticated approach in examining magical papyri containing the name "Abraham" or variations of it in Old Coptic from the Greco-Roman period, an approach that contextualizes these texts in their ritual setting. Such an approach makes the Book of Abraham's claims possible, even if it doesn't prove them, because ultimately it is not susceptible to empirical proof or disproof one way or the other; it's more nuanced than that.

By comparison, on the question of Joseph Smith's knowledge of the Bible, well, of course, since it is impossible to know about any text unless you have your own personal copy, we know that the Prophet was totally ignorant of the Bible because he didn't buy one until 1829. Case closed.

Your thoughts on the "review"?
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Chap
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Chap »

ldsfaqs wrote:
Chap wrote:Please cite scholarship by a non-LDS scholar published in a professional peer-reviewed journal agreeing that "Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimiles, he was receiving revelation of a truth".


The non-LDS scholar wasn't studying Mormonism, they were studying Egyptology.
It's LDS however who saw that the new found information apply's to what Joseph said, as evidence of his being right in some instances.
Also, LDS scholars such as Gee and others (among all the sciences) have discovered many other evidences on many subjects and many aspects of Mormonism.

Take this video for example, it shows the Book of Mormon actually being verified true by the Sciences, not false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMjNCFcG4-o


So that's a "No sorry, I can't give you what you asked for", then.

There is no scholarship by a non-LDS scholar published in a professional peer-reviewed journal agreeing that "Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimiles, he was receiving revelation of a truth".
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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