Three Powerful Books

[_mentalgymnast]

I think it is literally a miracle (hand of God) that life evolved into consciousness.

This also seems wrong. Life didn't evolve "into" consciousness. The apparent science/philosophy of mind current suggests conciousness is an emergent quality that comes about from different regions of the brain interacting. The brain appears to be a hive of varied voices and information exchange. States of consciousness appear to increase or decrease relative to that chatter. During general anesthesia it seems like the regions of the brain are cycling in a wave such that the regions aren't able to communicate. This implies that inside of what you imagine is a single consciousness are infact numerous consciousnesses. I offered up an example of a split brain patient who clearly because two different people inside one body when the hemispheres of the brain were prevented from talking to one another.

Consciousness is certainly a miracle. And I love the effects of it that include wonder, aesthetic appreciation, give additional meaning to social relationships, bring burdens and challenges, and all that it includes that makes us human. But that's not an argument for the Christian-Judeo God. It's a wonder.

OK. I hear what you’re saying. I suppose when it comes right down to it I find it simply illogical that this (life) all exists for nothing...except for what we make it. That it doesn’t continue. That this thing we call soul/mind is nothing more than, well, nothing...when all is said and done. When the EKG flatlines, it’s over.

When the existence of a creator God can’t be proved one way or the other and there are valid reasons to believe and valid reasons to disbelieve I find belief to be more satisfying both intellectually and spiritually.

Belief in the Judeo-Christian God does present questions that can keep one up late at night. As I’ve said before, it’s my belief/hope in the Book of Mormon as an artifact/evidence of God interacting with people in different dispensations of time that keeps me centered in my belief/hope in Jesus Christ as being more than a myth. The Book of Mormon is keystone. But I think I’ve repeated that ad nauseam in these parts.

I’m a lay person when it comes to science and scientific research. But I absolutely look at science as our friend, not enemy. But the fact is, there are smart people on both sides of the belief vs. non-belief divide. If the evidence was super persuasive one way or the other I think there would have been a winner by now. As it is, there are valid reasons for belief and valid reasons for non-belief. Personally I find it much more satisfying to practice belief and keep my options open. Disbelief, in my opinion, closes doors to further investigation. Once one has taken the hardline position to say there is no creator God then one is limited in their investigations. They already know the ‘truth’. On the other hand, if one chooses religious practice and/or belief the options are not as limited. One can fully explore and consider all sides of the various facets of investigative adventures without having to become a hardliner. Religious belief for most of us is materially dependent on faith/hope anyway. Pretty hard to be a hardliner.

Life is richer because there are more things to be explored without limitations.

I can look at the three books I brought up in the OP as being interesting ‘evidences’ that MAY point towards faith in God/Christ and the restoration. You and others that take a hardliner approach and align themselves with secular humanism have placed yourselves in a box filled with limitations. And you’re always having to be on the defensive. I don’t have to be. I will typically take a defensive position as a matter of course, but at the end of the day I’m still left with faith/hope.

I don’t know for a fact that I’m 100% right in my positions and/or beliefs. From what I can see you are pretty much obligated to take a hardline position with no open doors for belief...unless, of course, your demands on a theoretical god are met according to pre-existing conditions...otherwise “I will not believe “.

Whew! Yeah. I think I’ve probably said all there is to say on my end this time around.

Best wishes,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Last thing...In some of my reading in the last couple of days I came across this site:

https://www.bighistoryproject.com/home

If you haven’t checked it out yet it’s well worth the visit. Bill Gates gives a little presentation at the beginning video.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

When the existence of a creator God can’t be proved one way or the other and there are valid reasons to believe and valid reasons to disbelieve...

Remember how this started? I asked the question what example you had of evidence for belief you think non-believers are just ignoring? You kinda tossed out the fine tuning argument but did so by adding in information theory, but relied on loosely related videos and wiki links to do all the lifting.

So, presented with discussion points against fine tuning or information theory being evidence for an intervening God, you come back full circle to it just being a preference or bias you think people have. Why? Because that's how you deal with the subject and can't figure out others might have actually been moved by evidence due to actually engaging with it and allowing that they might be wrong.

I opened the door wide and asked you to present your best argument. I read or watched most if not all of your links. You seem to think that should have been persuasive yet you also acknowledge you are just throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks. Hopefully if you got anything out of this, it's that information theory is not the panacea you hoped it would be even if you don't get why.

I don't know about you, MG. But whatever. If it makes you happy, then best of luck with it. Just be careful using it to smash up ideas and press them into doing duty protecting your belief system from genuine scrutiny.

[_honorentheos]

Life is richer because there are more things to be explored without limitations.

If you only knew...

[_Lemmie]

.... I find belief to be more satisfying both intellectually and spiritually.

.....Personally I find it much more satisfying to practice belief and keep my options open.

....Disbelief, in my opinion, closes doors to further investigation. Once one has taken the hardline position to say there is no creator God then one is limited in their investigations. They already know the ‘truth’. On the other hand, if one chooses religious practice and/or belief the options are not as limited. One can fully explore and consider all sides of the various facets of investigative adventures without having to become a hardliner. Religious belief for most of us is materially dependent on faith/hope anyway. Pretty hard to be a hardliner.

Life is richer because there are more things to be explored without limitations.

...You and others that take a hardliner approach and align themselves with secular humanism have placed yourselves in a box filled with limitations..

Lol. You were doing great describing your own views, but you are abysmally wrong in your assessment of others‘ views. Didn’t you read honor’s point?

....Consciousness is certainly a miracle. And I love the effects of it that include wonder, aesthetic appreciation, give additional meaning to social relationships, bring burdens and challenges, and all that it includes that makes us human. But that's not an argument for the Christian-Judeo God. It's a wonder.

It is.

And you’re always having to be on the defensive...I don’t have to be. I will typically take a defensive position as a matter of course,

Hmm. You don’t have to be defensive but you typically will?

Personally, I find so much is available to learn in the factual universe, more than a lifetime’s worth. Not believing in an imaginary supernatural thing in no way limits the delight I can take in the beauty of this natural world.

[_honorentheos]

Another thing I find ironic in MGs comment is very early on I offered that I am generally agnostic on the possibilty there is something beyond the limits of our understanding that, if we want to call that God I don't take issue with it. Yet because I reject the version of God he believes in because it's incompatible with the evidences then, well, all of the above.

He has a very narrow view of the universe but he can't see it due to it's narrowness.

[_honorentheos]

Personally, I find so much is available to learn in the factual universe, more than a lifetime’s worth. Not believing in an imaginary supernatural thing in no way limits the delight I can take in the beauty of this natural world.

Well said.

[_Morley]

I feel more sympathy for MG than almost anyone else on the board. He's a closeted agnostic, caught up in self-denial. And he fears his whole life has been wasted.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[quote]Personally, I find so much is available to learn in the factual universe, more than a lifetime’s worth. Not believing in an imaginary supernatural thing in no way limits the delight I can take in the beauty of this natural world.[/quote]

Truth. I'm currently hiking the Tahoe Rim trail. Two nights ago I was laying under some enormous cedars or pines (not sure what they are up here) and was noticing the fractal nature of their growth patterns. These giants taking hundreds of years to grow follow a very simple recursion from the tiniest sprig to the largest branch. Suddenly it dawned on me how all of creation follows this infinite fractal recursion throughout its design process. And voila. That's life. This infinite repetition with tiny variations from one thing to the next, recursively begetting outwardly complex things from clouds to trees to human beings. Absolutely fascinating to observe and think about.

- Doc

[_Philo Sofee]

that's awesome Doc! I spent the day in my personal forest enjoying a day of studying chess and listening to the breeze moving through my pines. Absolutely perfect day, drank a lot of ice water, and an Irish Death, dark smooth ale. A friend of mine introduced this drink to me, and there's nuthin like it on a hot day, sittin in the shade, learning chess. I mean paradise for an 8 hour day off. Dunno if it ever gets better than this! Oh, and homemade lasagna with cheese toast for lunch. I mean.......ahhhhhhhhhh...... who cares if there is a next life? We are here now, heaven can wait. I'm really enjoying this place!