Mormonism's OA and the mighty F-S chain

[Rivendale]

That’s the question—and I think Joseph may have been on the verge of discovering another ancient document that would have helped settle the matter before he was killed.

I keep coming back to the questions of why was this eternal intelligence—Elohim—selected out of all of us? Who selected this particular eternal intelligence? that’s your point: whoever selected Elohim is the “real god” (though that god would have been selected by a previous god and etc foerever into eternity past). I mean if we were all eternal intelligences what did Elohim do that was more righteous or whatever that resulted in his selection?

And—echoing gad—why was Jesus there with Elohim doing the creating? Jesus hadn’t been exalted yet, or so I presume, so what set him apart from the rest of us to help create? Was it all predestined?

When you all were believers, did you just not consider this stuff or is there a tradition that answers it?

Why not just natural variation? (opening the door to the question: what is "nature", or what does "natural" mean)

Just because all "intelligences" are co-eternal doesn't have to mean that they were equal in any other respect.

What parameters govern the non equality? Do intelligences get lazy? What motivates an intelligence? Boredom? How do intelligences gain any upper hand in the eventual thrust into the ultimate divine nest?

[Limnor]

Why not just natural variation? (opening the door to the question: what is "nature", or what does "natural" mean)

Just because all "intelligences" are co-eternal doesn't have to mean that they were equal in any other respect.

Sure, that could make sense. Maybe Elohim wasn’t “selected” at all, and just outsmarted the rest of us to gain a position of power. It makes me wonder how “intelligence” is defined, and in what way or why some are more intelligent than others?

Fun comparison and possible insight into composition:

Alma 11 explains Nephite currency and includes a line about the “value of them all.” It’s an odd insertion into the book, designed, I suppose, to add color to the value of the bribe in the story.

But what if it’s metaphorical? Within a roman a clef explanation, could we be seeing a similarity between the value of Joseph’s followers in a hierarchical system, one with Joseph at the head as being the one more intelligent than they all?

[Limnor]

What parameters govern the non equality? Do intelligences get lazy? What motivates an intelligence? Boredom? How do intelligences gain any upper hand in the eventual thrust into the ultimate divine nest?

In some cases I’d argue they do so through strategem, or even guile.

For example, Ammon gained influence through guile and service that impressed others—it could be said that he outsmarted others in the situation to gain influence. His storyline could be seen as a culmination of the foundational intelligences concept.

[malkie]

Why not just natural variation? (opening the door to the question: what is "nature", or what does "natural" mean)

Just because all "intelligences" are co-eternal doesn't have to mean that they were equal in any other respect.

What parameters govern the non equality? Do intelligences get lazy? What motivates an intelligence? Boredom? How do intelligences gain any upper hand in the eventual thrust into the ultimate divine nest?

In my mind, the only parameter and motivation that mattered was that one of them became aware that it could force the others to obey its will, and followed the great and holy principles:

• I'd rather be the hammer than the nail
• do unto others before they do unto you.

[Marcus]

No, because the board s/w doesn't know how to read people's intent. It can only read the typed letters.


Unfortunately, no. It's either on or it's off.


Sure. Look at the thread near the top of the page titled "Helpful hints to 'Tweak' the board" and you'll see how to turn it off.

Thanks - I never thought to look under Disabling the word censor to edit out "Filthy language" as a way to allow "LDS" to remain lower case.

The things we learn about our childhood religion.

[Limnor]

The theology seems to decisively reject domination by force (Lucifer’s plan) in favor of preservation of agency, which almost reads like a theological defense of free will or choice over coercion or predestination. Calvin takes a beating here.

Interestingly, the stories in the book seem to support that thinking—like Ammon gaining influence through service and persuasion rather than asserted authority. The “grounding” seems to be agency itself.

Though if you read it cynically it also looks a bit like how a persuasive conman might operate—or maybe even a manual to teach others’ how to do so. Which is ironic as the text also condemns priestcraft—religious persuasion used for gain—which makes the book intriguing and insightful, almost self-explanatory.

[Gadianton]

I mean if we were all eternal intelligences what did Elohim do that was more righteous or whatever that resulted in his selection

He wasn't selected as God. He became a spirit child of another God and either went to that earth as a regular guy or as the savior for all his father's worlds. Either way, he had to pass through mortality and get exalted to become God.

When you all were believers, did you just not consider this stuff or is there a tradition that answers it?

Generally yes, I considered it. There is no official doctrine on this stuff. No recent lesson manual that talks about it. Bruce R.'s book might be the closest you can get to an answer that is in the realm of semi-authoritative. But it's more like learning mythology than doctrine. Let's play a game. I'll give you an example of what a teacher might talk about in class. Pretend you are a student, and select the appropriate response. There is only one right answer.

Teacher says, "All of us lived together in the pre-existence as spirit children of our Heavenly Father. Our Heavenly father wanted us to learn and grow and come to earth to gain a body so we could become more like him. Lucifer was there also, he was envious of Gods power and presented a plan that would force us to return to our Heavenly Father's presence, and for this he wanted the glory. But then our elder brother Jesus presented the Father's plan - we would have freedom to choose. How does it make you feel to know that Jesus stepped forward to fight for our freedom?

a) If Jesus was our older brother, what about Lucifer? Was he our brother also? Before he turned prideful I heard he was "in authority", does that mean some of us might have been best friends with Lucifer for eons before he turned bad?
b) I'm so grateful that Jesus stepped forward so that we could have free choice. We should all try to be like him and do what Heavenly Father says.
c) In what way were we "children" of God as spirits, if he has a body, and Heavenly Mother has a body, how do they produce spirits as offspring, since spirits can go through walls etc.?
d) What if Lucifer had presented the same plan, but wasn't envious of God's power? What if he really thought it was worth locking down the rules for a short time so we could all make it back, would he have still got in trouble?
e) Were we spirits at this point or intelligences, or are they the same? If not, what did we do as intelligences before we were a spirit?

[malkie]

I mean if we were all eternal intelligences what did Elohim do that was more righteous or whatever that resulted in his selection

He wasn't selected as God. He became a spirit child of another God and either went to that earth as a regular guy or as the savior for all his father's worlds. Either way, he had to pass through mortality and get exalted to become God.

When you all were believers, did you just not consider this stuff or is there a tradition that answers it?

Generally yes, I considered it. There is no official doctrine on this stuff. No recent lesson manual that talks about it. Bruce R.'s book might be the closest you can get to an answer that is in the realm of semi-authoritative. But it's more like learning mythology than doctrine. Let's play a game. I'll give you an example of what a teacher might talk about in class. Pretend you are a student, and select the appropriate response. There is only one right answer.

Teacher says, "All of us lived together in the pre-existence as spirit children of our Heavenly Father. Our Heavenly father wanted us to learn and grow and come to earth to gain a body so we could become more like him. Lucifer was there also, he was envious of Gods power and presented a plan that would force us to return to our Heavenly Father's presence, and for this he wanted the glory. But then our elder brother Jesus presented the Father's plan - we would have freedom to choose. How does it make you feel to know that Jesus stepped forward to fight for our freedom?

a) If Jesus was our older brother, what about Lucifer? Was he our brother also? Before he turned prideful I heard he was "in authority", does that mean some of us might have been best friends with Lucifer for eons before he turned bad?
b) I'm so grateful that Jesus stepped forward so that we could have free choice. We should all try to be like him and do what Heavenly Father says.
c) In what way were we "children" of God as spirits, if he has a body, and Heavenly Mother has a body, how do they produce spirits as offspring, since spirits can go through walls etc.?
d) What if Lucifer had presented the same plan, but wasn't envious of God's power? What if he really thought it was worth locking down the rules for a short time so we could all make it back, would he have still got in trouble?
e) Were we spirits at this point or intelligences, or are they the same? If not, what did we do as intelligences before we were a spirit?

I expect that the "correct" answer is b) - that is, it's what the teacher's manual says to accept, all the others being dismissed as idle speculation.

But there's a fly in the ointment, isn't there? We're supposed to have free choice, but also to do what Heavenly Father says. After all,

[Limnor]

I mean if we were all eternal intelligences what did Elohim do that was more righteous or whatever that resulted in his selection

He wasn't selected as God. He became a spirit child of another God and either went to that earth as a regular guy or as the savior for all his father's worlds. Either way, he had to pass through mortality and get exalted to become God.

I guess what I’m saying is if we were all eternal intelligences together, why was Elohim selected to be the spirit child of his Heavenly Father over anyone else, and then after going through all that why did he choose us to be his spirit children? Maybe we were friends back when we were eternal intelligences and he chose us to be his children to do us a solid? Are there still millions waiting to be selected by some other Heavenly Father to be his spirit children? I’d guess there would have to be, for those who “make it” to that point to have some to choose from to continue the cycle.

Also yeah I see your point—it’s “b” if you want to be a good kid. There must have been a lot of pressure to go along? I didn’t mean that as a criticism to dismiss the cultural influence. It’s really just curiosity about whether there’s an unofficial theory—like maybe uncle Jared’s explanation—that tries to answer these things.

[Gadianton]

Malkie,

Yes, that's exactly it. There's a lesson here that can't be discussed. Mormons seem to assume libertarian free will, free agency means you can literally "do whatever you want". The competing version of free will is practical free will -- even if my path is determined, I'm free if I don't have a gun to my head. This is what atheists believe who believe the universe is causally closed.

Well, the pre-existence poses an inverse of Pascal's wager. Satan is actually Pascal's brother, who says the cost of infinite loss -- outer darkness for starters -- isn't worth risking for gaining a body when we're already in heaven with God forever and (libertarian) free-agency is impossible to take away, since it's the definition of "existence", "without agency there is no existence", and so Jesus' plan is barely more than a plan that says green shall be green. Since agency can't be destroyed, we can enforce tight rules for a brief time just to get the body, if we must.

Here's where it gets mind blowing. Mormons sometimes tell a story in church about a prisoner in a concentration camp who was forced to live in a small box for years, where he could only sit and not move from place. When he was freed, he claimed that he was more free than those who imprisoned him - the Nazi soldiers who were pawns of authoritarian rule. He had no practical freedom, but his mind was free to believe what he wanted. This is a lesson about how important free-agency is and how it wins against everything.

Well, in that case, John Milton had Satan covered. Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven. All those who followed the father's plan are like the Nazi soldiers who "obey Heavenly Father" against rationality and their own or anyone else's benefit. The hidden psychology of the libertarian assumption is self-harm. If I have the thought, am I really free? The only way to really prove it is by doing something outrageous that no "logical" or "robot" would do, like throw myself off a cliff in order to prove I can really do it.

So the psychology behind any free-will narrative needs to involve self-destruction as a choice in order to differentiate it between practical freedom.