Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Esme]

Some of his reasons make a good deal of sense to me. Having earned a PhD myself, I would be looking to simplify business operations as I tried to finish mine, if I had had a business. In my case, I got rid of cable tv and refused a church calling for the very first time. I think it is silly to look for the *real reason* because decision making processes of a complicated nature often don’t involve a single compelling consideration. His situation looks very complicated at that time.

Like I said, I'm open that he had multiple motivations that could exist simultaneously.

I guess I'm just pushing back on what I see as people simplifying it too much into an obvious business decision. I don't see it that way and I don't think the documents support that as a primary motivation. They may support it as a concurrent motivation.

In his email, he goes into all this stuff about how he can't do this anymore, it's hurting him, hurting his family, hurting both of them, etc. He LEADS with this and goes on for paragraphs. It's not until page 2 that we get to "I don't have time for this, I need to finish my Phd, etc."

Looking at his motivations is important to whether Rosebud was treated unfairly or not. Was this primarily a business decision?

[Dr Moore]

If John Dehlin did not think doing this stuff was feasible for various reasons, it wasn’t going to happen as a business decision. I am surprised he is so open about it, and, in a funny way, the artless way in which he does so suggests that he is not the manipulative mastermind his enemies depict him as being.

I was going to make this point but you said it better anyway. Yes, once you know it’s there you see it everywhere. He’s trying to tell her, and she just won’t listen.

In one of the now unavailable documents he says “you aren’t listening to me” and it goes right over her head.

[Esme]

She may not have trusted it. She probably did not. And it probably chafed severely that John Dehlin did not do as she asked and join her in forcing Joanna to resign. Having come so close to getting her way, she is angry and frustrated to come out with so little. Why should she accept that, right? Yeah, it burns and feels so unfair. I would be furious were I in her shoes. It would take a while to get over it.

I would feel upset as well and feel I had been treated unfairly.

They both participated in the affair, and in the fallout seems to disproportionately affect her. And it can be argued that he committed the greater "sin" by being in somewhat of an managerial position over her.

And to her, it looks like John Dehlin gets away with no consequences while she loses everything.

[Esme]

In one of the now unavailable documents he says “you aren’t listening to me” and it goes right over her head.

We don't know exactly he is referring to, though.

You're not listening to me that this is a unsustainable business venture?

You're not listening to me and leaving like I asked?

You're not listening to me that I told you not to X, Y, Z (something specific thing) and you did it anyway?

[Kishkumen]

Like I said, I'm open that he had multiple motivations that could exist simultaneously.

I guess I'm just pushing back on what I see as people simplifying it too much into an obvious business decision. I don't see it that way and I don't think the documents support that as a primary motivation. They may support it as a concurrent motivation.

In his email, he goes into all this stuff about how he can't do this anymore, it's hurting him, hurting his family, hurting both of them, etc. He LEADS with this and goes on for paragraphs. It's not until page 2 that we get to "I don't have time for this, I need to finish my Phd, etc."

Looking at his motivations is important to whether Rosebud was treated unfairly or not. Was this primarily a business decision?

In short, yes. Getting a PhD was a business decision. Focusing on his core competency was a business decision. Getting his private life under control was a business decision. Blowing any part of this was potentially catastrophic for the business that he had built for 6 years.

The problem is that he unwisely chose to complicate his business calculus with personal drama. There is no way to fix that business calculus without further drama. Unfortunately for Rosebud, she did not choose to run away from a situation like that—one that was almost guaranteed to blow up in her face. She gambled and lost in a very heart-wrenching and devastating way.

Don’t have an affair with a married person and bank on them leaving their spouse for you, even if they say they will, even if they believe they will. Don’t have an affair with a coworker in a tiny company, for Jove’s sake. What happens if you come to hate each other?

I am very sad for Rosebud. Open Stories Foundation should have had a policy against fraternization and harassment on day one. John Dehlin should have put it in place and abided by it. Rosebud will hopefully learn from this not to take a job with the married man she is fooling around with. All of this looks really bad for both of them. Hopefully they don’t repeat their reckless and selfish behavior again. Hopefully they learn to be honest to themselves and others.

Lapses in character can be so damaging. Business can be thrown off track by mixing it with the personal. May they both learn that lesson.

[Kishkumen]

I would feel upset as well and feel I had been treated unfairly.

They both participated in the affair, and in the fallout seems to disproportionately affect her. And it can be argued that he committed the greater "sin" by being in somewhat of an managerial position over her.

And to her, it looks like John Dehlin gets away with no consequences while she loses everything.

No consequences?!?! I see plenty of consequences. He will lose donors over this. He has lost sleep over this. He probably came close to losing his marriage over it. I bet it has had a terrible psychological toll.

It sounds to me like you feel he ought to suffer more. It can’t be that you are saying that the business he founded and built for six years should treat him the same as someone who barely arrived and doesn’t seem to have made much money for the business. In all of this, I think some realism needs to be maintained.

Remember, Rosebud and John were not married, and there could be no expectation that they spilt the business 50/50 because they fooled around as consenting adults. There simply was no legal basis for such an outcome, whether you find that fair or not.

Still, I see why she is upset. Of course, one might ask one’s self why they voluntarily engaged in an extra-marital affair and then took a job with their married lover. Maybe much of my anger, were I that person, would be aimed at myself for doing something so transparently immoral, unethical, and risky. Moreover, you would have to think, by simple calculating self-preservation, that the chances of this hurting you more than the boss man were pretty damn good.

It is hard to accept our own bad decisions because we want to feel good about ourselves and justified in our rightness. Sometimes it takes me months to admit I made a really dumb decision. Someday Rosebud will come to see that, at the end of the day, no one forced her to have an affair with John Dehlin and no one forced her to work in the same company with him after they started that affair.

[Kishkumen]

We don't know exactly he is referring to, though.

You're not listening to me that this is a unsustainable business venture?

You're not listening to me and leaving like I asked?

You're not listening to me that I told you not to X, Y, Z (something specific thing) and you did it anyway?

You’re not listening to me as in you’re not listening to me. It is a very bad sign when someone refuses to listen and willfully presses forward. It affects personal and professional relationships. Everyone must learn to listen. If an employee refuses to listen to the boss, that’s a problem.

[Esme]

In short, yes. Getting a PhD was a business decision. Focusing on his core competency was a business decision. Getting his private life under control was a business decision. Blowing any part of this was potentially catastrophic for the business that he had built for 6 years.

Harsh, but I can see your point of view.

Were this a more clear cut case (more than 15 employees, superior and subordinate more clearly defined), I don't think the superior gets to push out the subordinate in order to fix his life and prevent his business from blowing up.

And I get it's a small company, etc. etc.

[Esme]

No consequences?!?! I see plenty of consequences. He will lose donors over this. He has lost sleep over this. He probably came close to losing his marriage over it. I bet it has had a terrible psychological toll.

I was looking at it from Rosebud's point of view. From her point of view, he looks very successful.

It sounds to me like you feel he ought to suffer more. It can’t be that you are saying that the business he founded and built for six years should treat him the same as someone who barely arrived and doesn’t seem to have made much money for the business. In all of this, I think some realism needs to be maintained.

Remember, Rosebud and John were not married, and there could be no expectation that they spilt the business 50/50 because they fooled around as consenting adults. There simply was no legal basis for such an outcome, whether you find that fair or not.

No, they do not get to split the business 50/50. And I agree there is nothing legal can be done. Yes, I do find it unfair though. I get there were no good options and it looks like Joanna tried to make it as fair as she could. I think the Open Stories Foundation should have just been been dissolved and John restarted on his own. He was only left with one board member anyway.

Still, I see why she is upset. Of course, one might ask one’s self why they voluntarily engaged in an extra-marital affair and then took a job with their married lover. Maybe much of my anger, were I that person, would be aimed at myself for doing something so transparently immoral, unethical, and risky. Moreover, you would have to think, by simple calculating self-preservation, that the chances of this hurting you more than the boss man were pretty damn good.

It is hard to accept our own bad decisions because we want to feel good about ourselves and justified in our rightness. Sometimes it takes me months to admit I made a really dumb decision. Someday Rosebud will come to see that, at the end of the day, no one forced her to have an affair with John Dehlin and no one forced her to work in the same company with him after they started that affair.

Yep, it was a dumb move to get involved. She should have anticipated that she had more to lose if things went south. Their early texts have promises of "I will never do anything to hurt you, no matter what happens" going both ways. It was dumb to trust those promises and she probably kicks herself every day that she ever got involved with him.

[Esme]

You’re not listening to me as in you’re not listening to me. It is a very bad sign when someone refuses to listen and willfully presses forward. It affects personal and professional relationships. Everyone must learn to listen. If an employee refuses to listen to the boss, that’s a problem.

Yes, that's not a good sign if an employee refuses to listen to the boss. Is she the employee and he the boss in this situation? Because I thought all of that was muddled.