Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_marg]

Hi Moniker.

I don't intend to spend much time on this today. I was also thinking of dropping it on the board and perhaps communicating by P.M. because I feel I will probably have to write some pretty harsh things about Ray which is not going to add value to the board and is unlikely to change him much. However I see he's added his 2 cents today..so I'll make a few comments, will think about whether to continue tomorrow.

Ray, saw more in this young woman than a sexual toy and yet still used her services. I'm not going to judge him for that.

Let's look at the reason Ray hired "working girls". He says " I have not had a serious relationship because I would not want to have one unless I really loved the woman, and knew I could be faithful. So yes, I did dally with "working girls" after divorce (what should I do, put my sexual desires in the freezer?), but in the process found that I came to see a very different side of these women, and I loved them as human beings, and wanted to be more than just a client, but a friend. There is one in particular that I like more than all the others, and if she could escape the drug cycle, I could love her, and her only, for the rest of my life. Sadly, it ain't going to happen. I can only dream."

Think about it. Is there something else Ray could have done? Is it really necessary to use a woman prostituting herself for her drug habit. Just because other men may do the same doesn't mean they make good life decisions either or that it is all okay. I don't think the majority of men in his situation solve their " problem" the way he chose to and may still intend to in the future. I really don't.

There is a huge difference between the risks associated with prostitution versus exotic dancing, they aren't in the same ball park in my opinion. In addition Moniker he was sober and still is sober as he justifies his actions on this board. Many men that you came across in your exotic dancing days were not thinking straight, they likely had the excuse of being somewhat intoxicated. Now I'm not saying there aren't a lot of people in this world who make dumb decisions, that Ray is the only one. Obviously intelligence is on a spectrum and there are various types of intelligences in each individual as well. Ray is articulate, expresses himself well, but he does lack in the area of critical thinking (he's quite a gullible individual) and making good life choice decisions. So not only is he willing to take risks in exposing himself to possible contagious diseases (because what else is he supposed to do put his sexual desires on hold?), not only does he willingly use women unnecessarily, finds women working on the street who are drug addicts, he also is part of the problem enabling young girls to feed their drug habit via prostitution and he's aware this is what they are doing it for. Read Rays words above again and think about them.

[_Ray A]

Let's look at the reason Ray hired "working girls". He says " I have not had a serious relationship because I would not want to have one unless I really loved the woman, and knew I could be faithful. So yes, I did dally with "working girls" after divorce (what should I do, put my sexual desires in the freezer?), but in the process found that I came to see a very different side of these women, and I loved them as human beings, and wanted to be more than just a client, but a friend. There is one in particular that I like more than all the others, and if she could escape the drug cycle, I could love her, and her only, for the rest of my life. Sadly, it ain't going to happen. I can only dream."

Think about it. Is there something else Ray could have done? Is it really necessary to use a woman prostituting herself for her drug habit. Just because other men may do the same doesn't mean they make good life decisions either or that it is all okay. I don't think the majority of men in his situation solve their " problem" the way he chose to and may still intend to in the future. I really don't.

There is a huge difference between the risks associated with prostitution versus exotic dancing, they aren't in the same ball park in my opinion. In addition Moniker he was sober and still is sober as he justifies his actions on this board. Many men that you came across in your exotic dancing days were not thinking straight, they likely had the excuse of being somewhat intoxicated. Now I'm not saying there aren't a lot of people in this world who make dumb decisions, that Ray is the only one. Obviously intelligence is on a spectrum and there are various types of intelligences in each individual as well. Ray is articulate, expresses himself well, but he does lack in the area of critical thinking (he's quite a gullible individual) and making good life choice decisions. So not only is he willing to take risks in exposing himself to possible contagious diseases (because what else is he supposed to do put his sexual desires on hold?), not only does he willingly use women unnecessarily, finds women working on the street who are drug addicts, he also is part of the problem enabling young girls to feed their drug habit via prostitution and he's aware this is what they are doing it for. Read Rays words above again and think about them.

What do men and women go to nightclubs for?

Do you think men who "pick up" girls in nightclubs use them? (also, do you think some women like being spoilt by these men?)

What does any of this have to do with "critical thinking"? (This is what I'd really like to know.)

[_ajax18]

You're the one using scare quotes. Some of these women find it empowering to take money from men and twittering behind their backs at what suckers they are. Surely, you know this? Some of these women string men along for years and take from them. Let's not just make broad generalizations about these women that

I guess the beauty of Mormonism is that women can do this without even having sex with the men they string along. Indeed it's very empowering, far more economically empowering than being able to bench press 400lbs or even calculate the path of the electron . That's why women have the balance of power shifted in their favor. I didn't hate the women who used their power this way near as much as I hate the society I live in that teaches them that this is right and good.

Now I feel sorry for these people because regardless of what socioeconomic system you live in, whether you are taught that slaves should be abused, or that its ok to mistreat people when you're the boss, or that fathers should have no rights, justice does not always pardon us because we were taught false ideas. We all have a responsibility to learn the truth and live by it.

Ajax, you really don't like women very much, do you?

I haven't met many women who I thought were fair in their relationships with men. That's true. I don't think that family court is fair to men and I don't think that the ethics that are taught in our current society are fair to men either.

As a young child or an orphan a woman can be compassionate and angelic. In the dating world all that goes out the window

Are they really empowered?

No they're not. I'm not really a fan of porn and prostitution either. It's not something I've chosen to involve myself in.

[_Ray A]

There is a huge difference between the risks associated with prostitution versus exotic dancing, they aren't in the same ball park in my opinion. In addition Moniker he was sober and still is sober as he justifies his actions on this board. Many men that you came across in your exotic dancing days were not thinking straight, they likely had the excuse of being somewhat intoxicated. Now I'm not saying there aren't a lot of people in this world who make dumb decisions, that Ray is the only one. Obviously intelligence is on a spectrum and there are various types of intelligences in each individual as well. Ray is articulate, expresses himself well, but he does lack in the area of critical thinking (he's quite a gullible individual) and making good life choice decisions. So not only is he willing to take risks in exposing himself to possible contagious diseases (because what else is he supposed to do put his sexual desires on hold?), not only does he willingly use women unnecessarily, finds women working on the street who are drug addicts, he also is part of the problem enabling young girls to feed their drug habit via prostitution and he's aware this is what they are doing it for. Read Rays words above again and think about them.

This is what I mean you don't have a realistic view, and portray me as some kind of preying monster who deliberately looks for drug-addicted women to "use" as sex objects. I've been involved with exactly three, over seven years, two remain good friends, one is now working as a nurse, and calls from time to time because we remain good friends, and she has escaped the drug-cycle. I see no one now, don't wish to have a relationship, and haven't for a while, but I transport lots and lots of men, many of them married, some in prominent community positions, to brothels, while their wives and girlfriends think they are either working, or "out with mates". Of course not all men are like this, but I would think far more than you imagine, and possibly most here.

Do you think Bill Clinton was a "good critical thinker"? JFK?

How many US presidents would you like me to go through? Isn't this kind of scary? Do you think this only happens in Hollywood?

This is why I say you're naïve. You don't have a clue what happens in the real world.

We've seen one side of this. But do you think some of these women use the men they see? Or is that too PC to talk about?

Prostitution: Money for "services".

Glorified prostitution (paraphrasing Noel from another thread): Stockings, chocolates, expensive dinners....bedtime.

[_Ray A]

Hi Moniker.

I don't intend to spend much time on this today. I was also thinking of dropping it on the board and perhaps communicating by P.M. because I feel I will probably have to write some pretty harsh things about Ray which is not going to add value to the board and is unlikely to change him much.

Maybe you should PM her. She knows far more about me now, personally, than you know from "all the years" you've been reading my posts.

Change me from what? Your strawmen?

[_Ray A]

Let's look at the reason Ray hired "working girls". He says " I have not had a serious relationship because I would not want to have one unless I really loved the woman, and knew I could be faithful. So yes, I did dally with "working girls" after divorce (what should I do, put my sexual desires in the freezer?), but in the process found that I came to see a very different side of these women, and I loved them as human beings, and wanted to be more than just a client, but a friend. There is one in particular that I like more than all the others, and if she could escape the drug cycle, I could love her, and her only, for the rest of my life. Sadly, it ain't going to happen. I can only dream."

I'm totally amazed at how you can use this to justify or prove anything. Can you even read straight? How does this equate with your claim that I "used" this (or any) girl because she was drug-dependent? This in fact shows quite the opposite.

Is this what "critical thinking" does?

[_marg]

This is what I mean you don't have a realistic view, and portray me as some kind of preying monster who deliberately looks for drug-addicted women to "use" as sex objects. I've been involved with exactly three, over seven years, two remain good friends, one is now working as a nurse, and calls from time to time because we remain good friends, and she has escaped the drug-cycle. I see no one now, don't wish to have a relationship, and haven't for a while, but I transport lots and lots of men, many of them married, some in prominent community positions, to brothels, while their wives and girlfriends think they are either working, or "out with mates". Of course not all men are like this, but I would think far more than you imagine, and possibly most here.

Well I did a little research on the net and found that in the U.S. roughly 10 % of men report having paid for sex in their lives, 1 % in the previous year. Now let's say it's 20% have done so, just so we don't argue about the numbers. It's not exactly the majority of men have done so. In addition Ray there are different types of prostitution, with street prostitution being the worst as far as likelihood of women having STD's, the most likely to be where the women are addicted to drugs and are desperate.. In none of my posts have I focussed on the actual sex act as being immoral. What I have focussed on is that it is much less likely that emotionally stable men with good decision making skills would use prostitutes and even more so that they'd ever use a street prostitute as you did who carry high risks of crime and STD's. People vary in degrees of intelligence and types of intelligences vary with each individual. Someone might be extremely talented in a particular area, perhaps successful financially, a millionaire many times over because of their unique ability but an idiot in other areas of their lives. And I bring this particular example up because I just finished reading Eric Clapton's biography...what a idiot he's been most of his life, a real jerk to people in general, particularly women. So the amount of material wealth an individual has is not the main criteria for an emotionally stable intelligent good decision making individual. I think he's fortunate he had an excellent manager most of his career.

So people vary in their decision making skills and intelligence. A small percentage of the population are extremely good critical thinkers, the majority are likely average to low critical thinkers. And of course some people are consistently high thinkers in all areas, while others might be high in most areas but limited in particular areas. For example when it comes to religious belief and critically thinking well about one's beliefs, most people indoctrinated from a young age seem to have difficultly examining if they even do so their beliefs objectively. Of course I don't have the statistics but in a given population I do not think, of the minority of men who have used a prostitute they would come from the high functioning, good decision making, critical thinkers of a population of men. I think of the minority of any population let's say 20% of that population that used prostitutes the majority of them would be likely losers in life, losers as a result of poor decision making abilities. And of those who used street prostitutes particularly drug addicts an even greater percentage would be losers, men who women aren't interested in. Prostitution that is regulated or higher end would tend to be less risky regarding STD's and attract a more successful type. But even so, I think of the minority of men of any population who would use prostitutes, they would unlikely be the emotionally stable intelligent ,type attractive to women.

Do you think Bill Clinton was a "good critical thinker"? JFK?

How many US presidents would you like me to go through? Isn't this kind of scary? Do you think this only happens in Hollywood?

Yes, I think Bill Clinton is a "good critical thinker". He didn't hire street hookers on drugs who turned many tricks per day, day after day that's one difference between you and him on this issue. Women threw themselves at him, he didn't hire women who were in desperate situations. It is a phenomena that rich and/or powerful men experience..that is women in droves willingly, eagerly going after them to have sex. In this case, the men aren't losers, they tend to be the opposite and hence the reason women are attracted.

This is why I say you're naïve. You don't have a clue what happens in the real world.

We've seen one side of this. But do you think some of these women use the men they see? Or is that too PC to talk about?

Well yes, many women go after men for various reasons, often times biologically it is subconciously because they perceive the male will be a good provider, in particular to help raise her/their children.

Prostitution: Money for "services".

Glorified prostitution (paraphrasing Noel from another thread): Stockings, chocolates, expensive dinners....bedtime.

stockings? What's that about? Yes people use people. But Ray it's the losers generally in society who pay prostitutes, more so street prostitutes/drug addicts for essentially masturbation purposes. For me Ray, it says lots about any man..if they pay for sex for non intimate relationships particularly with desperate women.

[_marg]

[
What do men and women go to nightclubs for?

I don't know... sex.

Do you think men who "pick up" girls in nightclubs use them? (also, do you think some women like being spoilt by these men?)

Yes they probably use them for sex and probably the women use the men for sex. But in either case they aren't using desperate people. They may be losers in society, they might not be, not enough information from that scenario to assume either way.

What does any of this have to do with "critical thinking"? (This is what I'd really like to know.)

I know a few highly functioning successful men, my dad and husband being two..though through them I've socialized with others. There is no way in hell Ray either one of them would have resorted to using prostitution. They wouldn't stoop to that level under any circumstances. And that would be the case even if they were single. The two of them are highly intelligent, high critical thinkers, extremely successful in business, in relationships, in life choice decisions. There is a reason they are successful, admired, rise to leadership positions in whatever group they participate in. They would help a desperate person, in this case a desperate prostitute but they wouldn't hire one for sex. They wouldn't want to. It wouldn't be an option they would contemplate. My husband's focus in life is on learning, being creative, socializing, progressing, assuming leadership positions. Now I do think they both are not representative of the majority of men, they are not typical, however I think the majority of men would not resort to prostitutes either. If a man doesn't have a sexual partner and he wants sex, it's not necessary he have one, there are other options. Obviously since you say you've only hired 3 times, most times you've managed with other options. It's not that hiring prostitutes = poor critical thinking. It's that the men who resort to the quick and dirty of prostitution are more likely to be the losers (that women don't want) in society, more likely to be poor decision makers/critical thinkers.

[_Dr. Shades]

I know a few highly functioning successful men, my dad and husband being two..though through them I've socialized with others. There is no way in hell Ray either one of them would have resorted to using prostitution.

But if they had, do you think they'd actually tell you?

At any rate, I have a different spin on all this. As long as Ray used a condom, the only thing I think he did which was reckless was allow her to live at his place. Drug addiction and theft go hand-in-hand, and addicts are well-known for stealing anything/everything in the house in order to feed their addictions.

So, Ray, I'm curious: Were you one of those extremely rare ones who beat the odds, or did she steal from you while she was in your home?

[_Ray A]

But if they had, do you think they'd actually tell you?

Precisely the point I was going to make. I'll have to reply to marg later, who has some very stereotypical, and even shallow ideas. You (marg) get your knowledge from books and stats, it seems, which don't show a thing about about how people really interact, and what they do, but more so who interacts at these levels. I also don't know what makes marg so sure people like Clinton never saw sex workers. She writes:

Women threw themselves at him, he didn't hire women who were in desperate situations.

And you know Monica Lewinski wasn't desperate (fame, a pay rise, promotion, or, perhaps, just for the love of it? Wouldn't a hamburger with sweet chilli source have been much less risky? Poor thinkers!)? What's any better about this? How many women do you know will resort to gobbling presidential penises with such a high risk of exposure? Not to mention the thought of being catalysts in family destruction? You are muddled on these issues, marg, but I'll address them in detail later when I have more time.

As for Clinton:

Someone who would knowingly risk impeachment, and divorce, for oral delights, doesn't seem to me to be very clever. In fact, I'd say anyone who could do this, would not think twice about visiting a hooker, only from Victoria's Secret, naturally. Suits, white shirts and ties, and lots of money, don't protect from STDs, stupidity, or ensure "high class" hookers and their clients don't carry STDs. The more I read your posts, marg, the more I think you have never really experienced much of what goes on in society. Face it, you've lived a very protected life in this sense, and "book learning" ain't goin' to educate you. I'll say more about this later.

At any rate, I have a different spin on all this. As long as Ray used a condom, the only thing I think he did which was reckless was allow her to live at his place. Drug addiction and theft go hand-in-hand, and addicts are well-known for stealing anything/everything in the house in order to feed their addictions.

So, Ray, I'm curious: Were you one of those extremely rare ones who beat the odds, or did she steal from you while she was in your home?

These are far more relevant points. Condoms, yes, stealing no, but I did beat the odds in the latter regard (she did, however, steal from others, but not me. I watched her steal in front of my eyes, and even encouraged me to do so). Drug addicts are notorious thieves, whether they are sex workers or children of parents who live in leafy suburbs. Shades is sharp to realise this, not something I see in marg. The secondary point I make to Shades' observation, is that drug addicts will use people. Anyone, anywhere, anytime. They are not entirely victims, any more than someone is a victim of alcohol or smoking (and some have said that smoking is more addictive than hard drugs. This could lead to a whole new debate about drugs, but let's not go there now).

The whole problem here is that marg wants everything to be neatly defined in black and white - and it can't be! Your definitions are largely artificial. And lastly, let me say one more thing about stats, especially in this regard: There are lies and statistics, and both lie in the same bed. Australian criminologists keep telling the people things are no worse today than they were 40 years ago. All provided by "stats", of course, what else? Oh, it's even "improving". They who have eyes to see, ears to hear, observe, and experience - have nothing but scorn for the statisticians. Because the fact is that the vast majority of crimes go unreported. Do you know anything about cops and paperwork? Do you know anything about WHO is interviewed to "gather facts", in any situation? Get into the real world, marg, and you will see not only your naïvété, but utter stupidity in this regard, and some of the artificial comparisons you make.