Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I'm trying to have an ephiphany here regarding charity's comments on Rogerian theory. Based on your education/background, would you say that no one theory/approach is best but rather a combination of theories/approaches used so long as they aren't in philosophical conflict?



This is basically the idea of Eclectic Therapy. However, it isn't a stretch to go ahead and admit that some therapies, as systems (such as Freudian psychodynamic theory and Rogerian therapy) have essentially failed as theories and applied psychotherapies.

The problem is that, as far as empirical data go, virtually all therapies work just about as well (which means not very well, statistically), providing the client believes in and has faith in the theory or explanation of his or her problems and works through the problem based upon that theory. In other words, there appears to be a substantial psychological placebo effect at work with most therapies (including the 12 Steps). Even Freudian theory, who's concepts of personality development and psychological functioning are pure nonsense, work for some people.

Right now, CBT is in the ascendancy as far as overall effectiveness, including effectiveness at combating addiction.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Coggins7 wrote:
I'm trying to have an ephiphany here regarding charity's comments on Rogerian theory. Based on your education/background, would you say that no one theory/approach is best but rather a combination of theories/approaches used so long as they aren't in philosophical conflict?



This is basically the idea of Eclectic Therapy. However, it isn't a stretch to go ahead and admit that some therapies, as systems (such as Freudian psychodynamic theory and Rogerian therapy) have essentially failed as theories and applied psychotherapies.

The problem is that, as far as empirical data go, virtually all therapies work just about as well (which means not very well, statistically), providing the client believes in and has faith in the theory or explanation of his or her problems and works through the problem based upon that theory. In other words, there appears to be a substantial psychological placebo effect at work with most therapies (including the 12 Steps). Even Freudian theory, who's concepts of personality development and psychological functioning are pure nonsense, work for some people.

Right now, CBT is in the ascendancy as far as overall effectiveness, including effectiveness at combating addiction.


At this juncture, it seems fitting to point out that prayer itself also produces a placebo effect. Which theorist do you personally subscribe to regarding personality development? Thank you for your response. Now if you don't find it too rude of me to say so, I'll wait for harmony to blow smoke out of her credentialed and degreed ass.

LSD

(For got I was here didn't ya?;-)
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Coggins7 wrote:
Balderdash. I was banned because Juliann hates me because I made her look like the fool she is. People hate it when they get caught in a lie.



Oh, of course...


Juliann says she wants to ban consistent bomb throwers. The really sad part is that apparently MAD cannot distinguish between bombs and water balloons.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

There is a time when tension builds up. It gets increasingly intense, the abuser starts and the abuse escalates. When the victim perceives that nothing she is doing is decreasing the intensity and when the tension is unbearable, she will d something to provoke an attack. (Make something for dinner he doesn't like etc.) Then there is a severe abusive incident "which is all her fault for making cacaroni and cheese." He becomes repentant, apologizes, brings gifts, makes promises. etc. There is a period of relative calm until tension begins to build. That is the cycle.

Did I pass your test?

Just so you will know, I don't think anybody should have to go through what you went through.


Thank you, and I agree, no one should have to go through what I went through.

You left out a lot in your summary, and you made a generalization which usually only occurs in some relationships. The victim doing something to provoke the episode just to get it over with occurs sometimes, but not consistently enough to mention it as part of the fundamental pattern. Most of the time victims of abuse turn themselves inside out to try and avoid the abuse. One of the epiphanies that victims of abuse must have is that the abuse has no correlation to her behavior at all – even in those minority of cases where the victim will try to trigger the actual episode to get it over with.

But, as Jersey Girl as mentioned, you have left a LOT out of your summary, notably the issues of control and power, and what the abuser does to immobilize the victim. This is particularly important to understand in regards to evaluating your comments about how the victim of abuse needs to grow a spine and confront her abuser. So I’m interested in your further clarification for Jersey Girl and an addition clarification for me as to how growing a spine and confronting the abuser factor into this cycle.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

jason,

I hope you are right, and the church's approach to abuse is different than it was when I was an active member. I went to every single bishop I had to get help. In my time period in the church, in my particular area, there tended to be mistrust towards the professional psychological community in the first place. Most members I knew, including me, first went to the bishop. When that obviously didn't help, we tried LDS social service counselor, which was another dismal failure. I really wonder if that individual had any decent training at all. He was completely, and I mean completely, clueless and easily manipulated by my lying husband. I only broke down and went to a *real* therapist when I couldn't stand the thought of my life continuing the way it was.

The bishops I had were utterly clueless in terms of abuse - even physical abuse, much less the harder to grasp verbal abuse, which really is just as damaging. Posters are asking what the women wanted the bishop to do, well I can tell you what I wanted the bishop to do. I wanted him to counsel my HUSBAND and make him STOP. I absolutely viewed this as a worthiness issue on his part, but obviously the bishops didn't. I remember two events in particular. One was at the very beginning of my marriage, when I really should have gotten OUT. Part of my husband's abuse and illness was to hyper-focus on my body. By his own words, he told me my body should feel "like a statue" under his hands. Not a single bump anywhere. I had a very good figure anyway, but he wanted absolute perfection - you know, the airbrushed kind that can't be achieved in REAL life where we're dealing with PEOPLE, not statues or pictures. So although I was already underweight, according to the charts, he wanted me to lose even more weight. I already exercised like a fanatic and watched what I ate, so I had to literally starve myself to lose more, so I went on OTC diet pills. When I look at pictures of myself during that time period, I am almost shocked. My arms were twigs already, and I was on DIET PILLS? Although I hid the worst of what was happening, my parents figured out enough to be concerned, and called my bishop and asked him to talk to me. I shared some of what was going on, in particular the body thing - and he literally - and I do mean literally - patted me on the hand and praised me for being such a good wife I was willing to go the extra mile. That was it. He and my husband became golfing buddies, and he called my husband to be his counselor after that incident.


The second I remember vividly happened years later, after I'd had three children. I was at my wit's end, and knew my husband's behavior was damaging them, too - yet I didn't feel justified divorcing him, due to the church's teachings on the horrors of divorce. So I, once again, went to the new bishop, thinking maybe this one would see that my children and I were living in hell, and would use his influence to persuade my husband to STOP. I shared some details of my husband's frightening, volatile rages, and his unpredictability, and cruel speech. This bishop told me this was "locker room" behavior and most men act this way, and we women are just not used to it and are too sensitive. He told me to talk to his wife for advice, which I did on a temple trip we were both on shortly thereafter. From our conversation, it became clear to me that the bishop was treating his wife almost as badly as my husband was treating me. I don't remember if she used the word "abuse", but she clearly implied it, by saying "the cycle has to stop here". But her approach was certainly not "stopping the cycle" - I know because I used to try it. She would forgive and try to forget, and just remove herself from him when he was ballistic. Of course, my husband would chase me when *I* tried to get away.


Beastie

First I want to say I am so sad for what happened to you and for all the awful things you went through. I am sorry you did not get the help you need. I had something happen to me when I was fourteen that was abuse by an adult male who was my boss at a job I had. I went to my bishop about this. He counseled me fairly well on the fact that this was not my fault. But from there I think he just did not know what to do. There were no legal actions-the guy should have gone to jail-I was not his only victim. But bishops were just clueless and society was even much different about this then.

I think things are better and getting better. I just cannot imagine any bishop acting like this today about what you went through. At least they have better direction and resources.



And really, bishops are not trained to COUNSEL people, even though every LDS I've ever knew thought that was part of their job, and they were inspired to do so. But the church ought never have to encourage members to think otherwise.



Well now they are to use the hotline and refer to counselors. LDS Family Services is recommended if available and I think they are much better too. At least the two in my area seem competent. But a bishop can refer to other therapists as well.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

truth dancer wrote:Abuse is not the woman's fault. Can't you get this into your brain? You can't accept what is true so you make up some garbarge to support YOUR ideas? It is NONSENSE!


This just shows you don't know much about abusive situations. That is a very real phenomenon. You do not understand the dynamics of a situation. The tension will be seen as worse than the battering event. Especially when the making up period occurs after. Abuse is not a circumstance of one person's actions seen alone. It is something that happens between 2 (TWO) people.

It is not the FAULT of the victim, anymore than the precipitating event CAUSES the abuser to become violent. It is a fact.

truth dancer wrote:
I can't for the life of me understand how you could teach a course on psych. It baffles my mind. Come on Charity... why not read a book? Or at least google the cycle of abuse? To make it easy for you...

http://crisis-support.org/cycle.htm

http://www.edvp.org/AboutDV/cycle.htm

http://www.psychpage.com/gay/library/ga ... lence.html

~dancer~


Google sources don't compare to college courses and workshops on the subject.

TD, you are part of the problem in dealing with abuse. The misinformation out there is almost overwhelming. You can't treat the problem without knowing the situation.

You deny that the woman ever does anything to provoke a battering incident. What does that do to the woman who has? She takes from your position that she is a terrible person because no one (except her) every just gives up and does the best she can to end the tension. So she doesn't open up to you and her feelings of self worth get even more damaged as she takes from your response that only a bad woman would engage in such behavior.. Good going there, counselor!

This is the problem with the "it's not your fault" "let me pat you on the head and pity you" school of therapy. When the woman comes to know that this is part of the cycle, that it is a natural reaction to extreme stress, then this understanding helps her to get out of the situation, and it improves her feelings of self-worth.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
Google sources don't compare to college courses and workshops on the subject.


Ummm... charity? You might want to ask TD what she does for a living, before you go off half-cocked and make yourself into a Loran-clone.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

charity
It is not the FAULT of the victim, anymore than the precipitating event CAUSES the abuser to become violent. It is a fact.


Could you discuss that a bit further, charity? Are you saying that the precipitating event DOES NOT cause the abuser to become violent?

What do you think causes the abuser to become violent?
_charity
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Post by _charity »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
Google sources don't compare to college courses and workshops on the subject.


Ummm... charity? You might want to ask TD what she does for a living, before you go off half-cocked and make yourself into a Loran-clone.


I don't know Loran.

If TD has never heard that many women provoke a battering incident because of the absolutely unbearable tension, then she can't know much more than the pop psych approach to counseling victims of domestic violence.

The key phrase here is ABSOLUTELY UNBEARABLE tension. And she doesn't know much about the the relief that occurs during the calm periiod.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:Coggins7 wrote:
Bishop's cannot "fix" other people. No one can "fix" others. Grow up.



You know that, and I know that, but women who live with men, church going, temple recommend holding, leadership position holding men, who abuse them DON'T know that. They want the bishop to fix it somehow, not break it to pieces by excommunicating their husbands and their children's fathers.


You're agenda is showing through here already Harmony. Those family and marriage issues you've never worked through in a healthy, mature way and have internalized and turned against yourself in a self destructive cycle of bitter hatred toward the Church that is really a displaced self hatred and impotent rage against certain key events or losses you have experienced in your life that have created horrendous internal conflicts and defense mechanisms that you have then externalized and reframed as a failure of external entities; in particular the Church and its teachings. You are the victim, the Church is the victimizer. Simple, black and white, self exculpatory (and popular) reference frame within which to explain away and absorb the vicissitudes of mortality. But not healthy or positive.


Learn to use the quote mechanism, Loran. As for the rest of this pile of compost, I tried to find a point. I really did. I failed. There is simply no point to find. Loran has once again surpassed his quota of legitimate thoughts, and has regressed to meaningless trivia.

Quote:
I have an extensive intellectual background in the study of psychology, yes. Its one of my life long interests. I'm also highly critical of its excesses and weaknesses, which are many. I have no degree in it (or one of its many forms) and do not claim to. Nor do I need one to pontificate upon the subject. Keep up the pose Harmony, your degree is probably just as real and just as legitimate as your Temple recommend.

Sit through 4 years of work, Loran. Put in your time. Study it, sweat it, bear its burden. Never be allowed to put it down. Let it consume your life, instead of it just being a hobby. Until you've done that, you're just a poser and you're just wasting everyone's time with your baseless pontification.


Its not a hobby, oh princess of pap.


If you don't have a degree and/or you don't work in the profession, it's a hobby, oh prince of compost.

In any case, I'm in the process of putting in work, over the next five or so years, to achieve a Master's degree in Political Science with a minor in philosophy, so I don't have time for Psych.


Then stay the heck out of conversations that would require a degree of knowledge of psych that you simply don't have.

If you're going to continue to blow smoke out of your ass in this manner, please consume some pine needles or cedar bark in some quantity so that at least it will give the house that Christmassy feeling.


Well, that was funny, in a sick sort of way. Still... you'd best stick to what you do best: create long-winded posts about nothing.
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