I wasted two years of my life

[_Moniker]

I also remember a teaching regarding divine confirmation of your callings. I check on that when I'm called to teach a once a week class. There is no way I would dedicate two years of my life without checking. Do people not understand what they're getting into? Do they not talk to Returned missionaries who can tell them how hard it is?

Maybe others had more faith than you. Maybe they trusted their leaders more than you. Maybe God doesn't talk to them quite so clearly as "he" does you. Maybe their priesthood leaders told them that it is Jesus Christ himself that is calling them to serve, (as did my husband's bishop). Maybe they didn't want to give up as easily as you would have. Maybe they hung onto hope against all odds. Maybe they loved their parents so much they didn't want to disappoint them and cause them heartache.

Seriously Nehor...

Can you not even minimally understand this dynamic?

~dancer~

Not really, no. If the guy I'm thinking of on my Mission had more trust, faith, and love than me then I quit.

So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.

I wonder what Jesus would say to doubting Thomas about that? (YES! I JUST NOW REALIZED THAT WAS FROM THE Bible!! WEEE!) Those that go without a testimony and the assurance of what you had Nehor went for reasons that TD listed above. You had all the assurance.. and they didn't. But they went anyway. Maybe they wanted to believe? Perhaps, they desired that same sort of confirmation that you had (no doubt they DID!) but they went ANYWAY!

Doubting Thomas didn't believe. Would he have gone on a Mission teaching about the Risen Lord despite not believing the Lord had risen? On that point the Scriptures are silent. The analogy doesn't fit.

Right, but didn't Jesus scold Thomas for requiring proof? Right? Oh sheesh, this is what I get for trying to talk about anything scripturally related. Oops! My point was that those without the assurance went ANYWAY. You had proof! Those that didn't have this proof still went, right? Do you not see something noble in that? I sort of do... You essentially KNEW because of whatever confirmation, testimony, etc... you had -- hell you SEE things and talk to people Nehor. YOU essentially held Jesus' hand (look to analogy) and those that went with OUT that still did as they were called to by the Lord/Church. Does that make sense? If not disregard me talking about anything Biblically related in the future. :)

[_Yoda]

So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.

You shouldn't buy it because that's not what she's saying. (TD, correct me if I'm wrong here.)

TD has said nothing about one type of missionary being better than another, or one type of person being better than another.

All TD and I have both said consistently is that it is a given fact that the LDS culture pressures young men to go on missions. Among believers, this pressure is considered good pressure, but it is pressure nonetheless.

I know that I certainly have more respect for someone who goes on a mission because they truly want to go. I honestly don't think that anyone SHOULD go on a mission if they have no personal desire to go. I have argued this for years.

That's why I disagree with the social pressure that the LDS culture DOES put on young men. They should go because they have a desire to serve. If they don't have a desire to serve, then they should do something else.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor...

So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.

Maybe.

I'm saying that there are many reasons young men and women go on missions. Circumstances are different. Experiences are different. Pressures, understanding, struggles are different.

It may be easier for those who are confident and have a strong testimony than it is for those who are struggling and go based on faith. Some may go because they want to, others may go because they want to be obedient in spite of their struggles. Some may hear a clear voice that says they must go, others might trust their leaders and put their faith in their counsel.

The point I am trying to make is that the decision to go or not to go on a mission is more complicated that you seem to realize.

These same missionaries that are condemned for going on a mission and trusting their leaders, having faith in the teachings of the prophets would be equally condemned if they didn't go... just look at those who do not go and are condemned and stigmatized by family for years.

Jersey Girl... ahhh yes, I understand your point.

Fear is a very strong motivator... especially fear of eternal damnation, fear of shame, fear of disobeying God.

~dancer~

[_Runtu]

So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.

I get it, Nehor. You were one of the non-sucky missionaries. Good for you. So was I. I went for all the right reasons, busted my butt to do what was right, tried hard to keep the spirit with me, etc. But there were a lot of missionaries, both good and bad, who were there for the "wrong" reasons. You can't deny there's a ton of pressure put on boys and young men to be missionaries. I have a friend whose dad said they would buy him a car if he served a mission (he got a Mustang GT). I knew people who were there for parents, girlfriends, whoever; even met one who said he went because he didn't want to let his priest quorum adviser down.

My point is that not all of these guys turned out to be crappy missionaries with bad attitudes. I had a friend who was the youngest in a prominent Utah family of all boys. All his brothers had served missions, and he said that it would have been unthinkable for him not to go. He didn't want to be there at all, but he was a good missionary and ended up being an AP.

What Merc describes is what I saw a lot of people doing: they didn't want to be there, but they thought they should be there, so they tried to make it work. It sounds to me like you and charity et al. haven't really listened to what Merc was saying. You seem to think that he was on his way out, so he couldn't possibly have tried to make his mission work.

[_The Nehor]

So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.

I get it, Nehor. You were one of the non-sucky missionaries. Good for you. So was I. I went for all the right reasons, busted my butt to do what was right, tried hard to keep the spirit with me, etc. But there were a lot of missionaries, both good and bad, who were there for the "wrong" reasons. You can't deny there's a ton of pressure put on boys and young men to be missionaries. I have a friend whose dad said they would buy him a car if he served a mission (he got a Mustang GT). I knew people who were there for parents, girlfriends, whoever; even met one who said he went because he didn't want to let his priest quorum adviser down.

My point is that not all of these guys turned out to be crappy missionaries with bad attitudes. I had a friend who was the youngest in a prominent Utah family of all boys. All his brothers had served missions, and he said that it would have been unthinkable for him not to go. He didn't want to be there at all, but he was a good missionary and ended up being an AP.

What Merc describes is what I saw a lot of people doing: they didn't want to be there, but they thought they should be there, so they tried to make it work. It sounds to me like you and charity et al. haven't really listened to what Merc was saying. You seem to think that he was on his way out, so he couldn't possibly have tried to make his mission work.

Mercury in other threads has said he was on his way out on his Mission. This might be a memory rewrite after the fact but it is what he claims. He also had many snide things to say about Missionary work and Elders in general. In most cases he refers to the disdain he had for them while on his Mission. Runtu, yeah, there were plenty of good missionaries who came for the wrong reason. From all Merc has said, I don't think he fits that description.

[_Runtu]

Mercury in other threads has said he was on his way out on his Mission. This might be a memory rewrite after the fact but it is what he claims. He also had many snide things to say about Missionary work and Elders in general. In most cases he refers to the disdain he had for them while on his Mission. Runtu, yeah, there were plenty of good missionaries who came for the wrong reason. From all Merc has said, I don't think he fits that description.

So what if he was on his way out on his mission? What I take from that is that he understood that it wasn't working for him. But if you noticed, he tried to make it work. If not, why the hell would he have married in the temple?

I could just as easily say I was on my way out when I was in the high priests group leadership. Doesn't mean I didn't try to make it work.

And if asked, I'm sure I would have more than a few snide things to say about missionary work. Again, so what?

[_The Nehor]

Mercury in other threads has said he was on his way out on his Mission. This might be a memory rewrite after the fact but it is what he claims. He also had many snide things to say about Missionary work and Elders in general. In most cases he refers to the disdain he had for them while on his Mission. Runtu, yeah, there were plenty of good missionaries who came for the wrong reason. From all Merc has said, I don't think he fits that description.

So what if he was on his way out on his mission? What I take from that is that he understood that it wasn't working for him. But if you noticed, he tried to make it work. If not, why the hell would he have married in the temple?

I could just as easily say I was on my way out when I was in the high priests group leadership. Doesn't mean I didn't try to make it work.

And if asked, I'm sure I would have more than a few snide things to say about missionary work. Again, so what?

I don't have a point, I was just responding to his rant about how crappy some of his life was with the implication that it was not his fault for choosing that path. Even outside religious thought, one of my biggest pet peeves is those who refuse to accept that they control their lives. One of the hardest things people can do is say, "I chose this life." It requires dumping a lot of excuses and rationalizations. It then also opens up a great new avenue though once you cross that hurdle, "I choose differently."

[_Mercury]

Li

ke I said, almost every missionary I know concurs: at least half the missionaries are there for the "wrong" reasons and do not want to be there. The idea that these teenagers are making some kind of morally reprehensible choice just reflects charity's not knowing much about missions.

Or you really don't know much about Missions, or the Church. And as Harmony symbolizes, you can be in the Church for a long time, go on a mission, and do this and that, and still not know very much about it.

Its not about being a member; its about living the Gospel.

Harmony never served a mission. harmony was baptized at 18, married and sealed at 19, had her 1st child at 20. No time for a mission there.

You are a convert? I feel so out of the loop.

[_James Clifford Miller]

As it was, the change from two-and-a-half years to two year missions came during my mission. Officially, we were to have been given the choice to stay for the original calling or leave at the end of just 24 months, but my mission president was bucking to be chosen a General Authority and he lied to us about the option because (as he foolishly confided to one of the elders working in the mission home) he was afraid too many of us going home after 24 months would hurt his chances for ecclesiastical advancement.

James, if you don't mind my asking, how old are you? I was unaware of this time frame for missions. When my husband went, the mission had been shortened from 24 months to 18 months. While he was out, they raised it back to the 24 months. Those missionaries that were out had the option to go home as scheduled or stay. My husband chose to stay. (My husband and I are both 43) Just curious. I was unaware of the longer, 30 month time frame you speak of.

The time frame was 1967-1969. In 1967 foreign language missions required 2.5 year missions to accommodate learning the language. We learned Danish in the field rather than at some MTC. Not surprisingly, most missionaries in Denmark spoke pretty awful Danish. Besides vocabulary and grammar problems, the Danes all thought we Americans spoke as though we had potatoes in our mouths ("kartoffler in munden"). And just as they started getting good in the language, their time would be up and they'd go home. The Danish words for "spirit" and "duck" were quite similar so it was relatively common (and very entertaining) to hear a missionary pray for the "gift of the Holy Duck." I also remember some senior companions pulling some language stunts with their "greenies" fresh from America. Some would tell them, "if you bump accidentally into someone, the way to apologize is to say 'pass poh.'" Trouble was, that was the rudest possible way of saying "look out, *ssh*l*." And others would send their greenies together to the dairy stores in the morning to buy breakfast milk by asking the young female clerks for "en halv kilo kærlighed" (a half a kilo of love). Yeah, feel the love.

But the Vietnam war was raging at the time and missionaries received missionary deferments from being drafted. The Church felt pressured about its 50,000 young draft age missionaries and reluctantly hacked six months off foreign language missions. I don't know what it did about the English language missions.

By the way, I didn't make up the anecdotes I told. Some apologists may feel uncomfortable with them, but many people have difficulty dealing with a reality at variance with their belief systems. Another anecdote is that I and others in the Danish mission ran across the aftermath of all those "basketball" (a.k.a. "hamburger") baptisms. I wrote to contemporaries in their missions and pieced together the disturbing story.

James Clifford Miller

[_Yoda]

By the way, I didn't make up the anecdotes I told. Some apologists may feel uncomfortable with them, but many people have difficulty dealing with a reality at variance with their belief systems. Another anecdote is that I and others in the Danish mission ran across the aftermath of all those "basketball" (a.k.a. "hamburger") baptisms. I wrote to contemporaries in their missions and pieced together the disturbing story.

Thanks for clarifying the time frame, James. I didn't think you were making anything up. I was just curious as to the time frame. Now I understand why I couldn't remember the longer mission span. I was 3 in 1967. LOL Thanks for making me feel young.