beastie wrote:He knew that this would likely result in violence. Bagley’s book provides evidence, from page 9, from Wilford Woodruff’s journal:
Even as he unleashed a new level of violence on the overland trail. Young understood the consequences of his new Indian policy. The United States was driving the Mormons to war too quickly, he told Wilford Woodruff at the end of August. The Saints had not had time to teach the Indians to not to kill women and children and “those who ought not to be killed.” Responsibility for such innocent victims would fall to American politicians, not on Mormon prophets. “The nation is determined to make us free. They are determined to drive us to defend ourselves & become independent,” he said. “[The Lord] will fight our battles & we will become an independent kingdom.” For Brigham Young, it was now the Kingdom of God or nothing.
Can you please provide page cites? And no, "I am not kidding" by asking such a simple request.
George A Smith was in the area shortly before the massacre, whether the date was exactly September 1 or not.
That was his area of responsibility for Church affairs. He was supposed to be there. What evidence to you have, other than Lee's statement, that he communicated instructions to kill the train?”
It is beyond dispute that:
3. Brigham Young knew that Indians would likely harm women and children (along with men, who apparently don’t matter).
Your best source?
4. Smith visited the region at the direction of Brigham Young.
That had been his area of responsibility for years.
5. Smith had a conversation with Lee in which he asked about the locals stopping “threatening” companies from passing.
Your source for this is what?
6. Smith later met up with the Fancher party and predicted some evil would befall them. Smith made no effort to contact Lee and tell him to let the train pass.
Why should Smith have to give such a response? My bishop doesn't tell my neighbor down the street to let me pass; it is assumed that I will. I mean, do you have any source to show that Smith told Lee not to let the train pass?
7. Brigham Young’s letter sent via Haslam specifically stated to let the Indians do as they wanted. Brigham Young had already encouraged the Indians to attack trains by telling them to take all the cattle they wanted. Brigham Young knew this would result in harm and likely loss of life.
No, the letter didn't say, "let the Indians do as they wanted." It said, "The Indians we expect will do as they please, but you should try and preserve good feelings with them." Young didn't "let" anybody do anything.
Your best cite for likely loss of life of emigrant train members? (As opposed to cattle.)
According to you, these facts do NOT add up to being able to accurately state that Brigham Young had to instruct loyal, faithful, obedient Mormons NOT to kill the emigrants.
Where have I said that these "facts" do not add up to, etc. Your facts are wrong.
Frankly, that sounds about as logical and believable as your insistence you won’t engage my points because you dislike my “turgid prose”.
How logical is it to mix a perceived slight against you with a discussion about the quality of Bagley's evidence? I don't get it. Your statements like "you've got to be kidding" and this one demonstrat an inability for dispassionate discourse about historical facts, wouldn't you agree? Are you going to get all upset again and threaten once again to expose personal facts about my family?
Do you remember when you said this to me:
I'm making a formal announcement: this guy is a misogynist arsehole and from now on I will treat him even worse than our roughest posters ever dreamed of. Hey, bob, it's a miracle you have seven kids. I guess that means your wife laid back and thought of England seven times. God knows I'd never let a misogynist touch me.
All because you didn't like a point I was making? My little seven year old needed a lot of comforting when he saw that.