Islam in the United States, with Mormons

[_harmony]

Fazlur Rahman taught at UCLA and the U of Chicago (among other places in the US and Pakistan), and is considered a founder of Islamic scholarship in the United States. Here's his take on the Islamic conquests:

The real explanation lies in the very structure of Islam as a religious and political complex. Whereas the Muslims did not spread their faith through the sword, it is, nevertheless, true that Islam insisted on the assumption of political power since it regarded itself as the repository of the Will of god which had to be worked on earth through a political order. From this point of view, Islam resembles the communist structure which, even if it does not oblige people to accept its creed, nevertheless insists on the assumption of the political order. To deny this fact would be both to violate history and to deny justice to Islam itself. Islam, p. 2

So Muslims regard political authority as their private prerogative, it seems. Certainly it once did, and how does Islam amend itself? There don't appear to be any mechanisms for this.

Are you saying Muslims think Islam is perfect?

Given the quality of leadership in Muslim countries, I find this assumption both ludicrous and distressing. Does your smiling Muslim neighbor in his hear of hearts think you really shouldn't deserve a say politically, if things were as they should be?

Well, at least they aren't wishing you were dead... well... maybe they are?

My sense is that something like this (disappointed) sense of entitlement lies behind the adversarial tone that even (or sometimes especially) Muslims in the West seem so naturally to assume towards things Western, even towards its best ideals ("democracy," "freedom," and the like). Even in liberal-tending Islamic sites populated mostly by converts (like Talk Islam, for example http://talkislam.information ) you find this.

It's hard to get too excited about Islam's "Journey into America."

That sense of entitlement rears it's ugly head again.

[_Some Schmo]

This board is rife with fakery, pretense, and militant ignorance.

Yes, yes... but it wouldn't be so if your post count wasn't so high.

[_cksalmon]

Or cksalmon’s fully-referenced thesis that radical Islam represents “chapel Islam” and that American academics feign ignorance of their widespread blood lust to paint them as a peace-loving people.

Unlike KA's situation, I think you have fairly represented me, here, J. As exhibit D, we might consider this. The spontaneous jubilance with which Palestinian Muslims received news of the fall of the towers in NY suggests to my mind an endemic cultural perspective.

cks

[_solomarineris]

"Miss Taken"
Just as a side point, nuns 'used' to pretty much, except for their face, (think Sister Act)go around covered from head to toe and nobody ever blinked an eye lid, but respected their garments (which I think were around 16th Century in origin) as a part of their commitment to their faith.

How many nuns you know of are pushed under submission to wear burqas, chadors, wrap bombs on their belly to blow up people?
You look at majority of the countries; Iran, Saudi Arabia, they resemble very much Hitler's rule. Half-ass moderate states like Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Libya, Sudan governed by Fascist rules.
Quran is an another version of Mein Kampf.
While DCP is frequenting Islamic elite, he doesn't realize that it is all window-dressing to get a foothold into Western countries, when they achieve this then let the slaughter of infidels begin.
How do I know all this?
DCP did not cruise the streets of volatile Middles Eastern cities as a young Christian boy, I did.

[_Daniel Peterson]

The spontaneous jubilance with which Palestinian Muslims received news of the fall of the towers in NY suggests to my mind an endemic cultural perspective.

My wife and I had American friends living in Palestine at the time who said that that demonstration was a very small-scale thing artificially ginned up for reporters' cameras, and who reported calls and visits from scores of Palestinians expressing grief and outrage over the events of 9/11.

What is now the Maxwell Institute had a camera crew in the Yemen on 9/11, out in the remote desert with a band of Kalashnikov-wielding Bedouins as their guides and bodyguards. (They were filming for our DVD Journey of Faith.) When the news reached them, the Bedouins were demonstrative in their expressions of remorse for what had happened. Over strenuous protests, one of the Bedouins insisted that a friend and colleague of mine accept his -- the Bedouin's -- elegant dagger (almost certainly his most prized possession) as a token of the man's sorrow and regret for what had happened.

"An endemic cultural perspective"?

[_Mary]

"Miss Taken"
Just as a side point, nuns 'used' to pretty much, except for their face, (think Sister Act)go around covered from head to toe and nobody ever blinked an eye lid, but respected their garments (which I think were around 16th Century in origin) as a part of their commitment to their faith.

How many nuns you know of are pushed under submission to wear burqas, chadors, wrap bombs on their belly to blow up people?
You look at majority of the countries; Iran, Saudi Arabia, they resemble very much Hitler's rule. Half-ass moderate states like Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Libya, Sudan governed by Fascist rules.
Quran is an another version of Mein Kampf.
While DCP is frequenting Islamic elite, he doesn't realize that it is all window-dressing to get a foothold into Western countries, when they achieve this then let the slaughter of infidels begin.
How do I know all this?
DCP did not cruise the streets of volatile Middles Eastern cities as a young Christian boy, I did.

But not all of Islam is bad and not all those who follow it are bad, that is fundamental surely? Sure, there are extremist elements in Islam and there are extreme interpretations of Islam, but the West with all it's debauchery, materialism and worldliness, it's greed and corrupt political and economic systems, does not offer a viable alternative in many a Muslim view perhaps?

Though you seem to imply that once a Muslim is in a majority the slaughter of the infidels will begin. Historically this has not always been the case. It very much depends on the leader surely?

While Europe was languishing in the 'dark' ages and slaughtering Jews, Iraq was enjoying a high civilisation and enlightenment. Jews were shown tolerance in Iberia under Muslim rule whilst they were being slaughtered by 'Christians'.

Greece, up until relatively recently managed to come through many 100's of years of 'Muslim' rule with a religion and belief still intact. They were not forcefully converted and they were not slaughtered on mass. (at least as far as I am aware)

And let's not forget the evils of the west. Does Hitler represent all Western countries, does Mussollini, does Stalin? Let's not forget the South African concentration camps begun by the British, and the evils that were perpetuated by much of Europe under the cause of Empire and Expansionism.

Let's not forget the plight of the American Indian and the Aborigine. Let's not forget the lot of the Indian under English rule.

And despite Mohammed Hossein Fahmideh being idolised and copied, lets not forget that terrorist activities are not the sole domain of the muslim extremist. Kamikaze bombers were doing it long before that, and the IRA were killing and maming innocents more recently in the UK (without the courage to kill themselves while they were at it) often with the full support of a section of the American community.

Grief.

We don't live in a perfect world and there is no perfect system.

[_Paul Osborne]

We don't live in a perfect world and there is no perfect system.

So true. We live in a cruel world -- Alice Cooper calls it a "brutal planet". There is so much hate and greed in the world among all nations and all peoples. It's not just the evil side of Islam that corrupts the planet but the Mother of Harlots seems to have the world wrapped in chains and her influence is everywhere.

I think we can all agree that the solution to all of the problems is found in the simple message of loving one another and learning to be tolerant. I'd like to see a movement in native Islam where the teachings of love and tolerance on a Christlike level are adopted and fully taught openly. I'd like to see the nations of Islam open their doors to the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This may be wishful thinking on my part but it is prophesied that Christ's gospel would go to all the world in the last days.

Paul O

[_solomarineris]

The spontaneous jubilance with which Palestinian Muslims received news of the fall of the towers in NY suggests to my mind an endemic cultural perspective.

My wife and I had American friends living in Palestine at the time who said that that demonstration was a very small-scale thing artificially ginned up for reporters' cameras, and who reported calls and visits from scores of Palestinians expressing grief and outrage over the events of 9/11.
What is now the Maxwell Institute had a camera crew in the Yemen on 9/11, out in the remote desert with a band of Kalashnikov-wielding Bedouins as their guides and bodyguards. (They were filming for our DVD Journey of Faith.) When the news reached them, the Bedouins were demonstrative in their expressions of remorse for what had happened. Over strenuous protests, one of the Bedouins insisted that a friend and colleague of mine accept his -- the Bedouin's -- elegant dagger (almost certainly his most prized possession) as a token of the man's sorrow and regret for what had happened.
"An endemic cultural perspective"?

DCP,
Do you admit that Islam is hijacked by bunch of fascist thugs and implemented brutally 90% of Middle East?
I live in Houston, my mechanic is Palestinian, my neighbors are Arabs, we get along wonderfully, I speak little Arabic, they speak little Turkish we have great time.
Majority of those Islamic people live under the tyrannic rules would have no qualms about getting rid of those Thugs.
Do you think Americans don't know that?
I am not minimizing the job you do. At least you guys opened a dialog, to show them what we got, more you show them the fruits of freedom, better both sides are going to be.
You can work toward that goal of understanding, I can't; I'm a damaged good, I've been traumatized too many times. I couldn't even finish watching the movie "Kite Runner".

[_Daniel Peterson]

Do you admit that Islam is hijacked by bunch of fascist thugs and implemented brutally 90% of Middle East?

I don't just "admit," but I readily say that groups of fascist thugs have been attempting to hijack Islam, and that they've been successful to a very uncomfortable degree.

I don't admit that this is so in "90% of the Middle East" (e.g., in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, etc.). Some of those countries are ruled by fascist thugs, no doubt, but, in many of them, this has little if anything to do with Islam. Thugs are just thugs. Others among those countries aren't ruled by fascist thugs at all.

And, outside of the Middle East, the situation is similarly mixed. I don't consider the governments of Indonesia or Malaysia either fascist or especially thuggish. Pakistan's government is sometimes rather fascist and thuggish, but at other times it isn't. And so on.

[_sethpayne]

The spontaneous jubilance with which Palestinian Muslims received news of the fall of the towers in NY suggests to my mind an endemic cultural perspective.

My wife and I had American friends living in Palestine at the time who said that that demonstration was a very small-scale thing artificially ginned up for reporters' cameras, and who reported calls and visits from scores of Palestinians expressing grief and outrage over the events of 9/11.

What is now the Maxwell Institute had a camera crew in the Yemen on 9/11, out in the remote desert with a band of Kalashnikov-wielding Bedouins as their guides and bodyguards. (They were filming for our DVD Journey of Faith.) When the news reached them, the Bedouins were demonstrative in their expressions of remorse for what had happened. Over strenuous protests, one of the Bedouins insisted that a friend and colleague of mine accept his -- the Bedouin's -- elegant dagger (almost certainly his most prized possession) as a token of the man's sorrow and regret for what had happened.

"An endemic cultural perspective"?

This is really fascinating. I wish more of these images and stories would be made public.