Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

[_Themis]

Either an angel came to Joseph and told him at around 17 or he made it up. If an angel came to him then not much else to discuss. If he made it up then what? Since evidence is a lacking of him making this claim until well after the church was started, then making the prediction is not very compelling since it was already in progress. His religion was growing fast and was already in several countries. So far MG you have not provided anything compelling at all. If you could show evidence that he made the claim before he started any following then it might be more impressive, although not conclusive evidence for divine intervention. Most people don't think they will be famous, but it still leaves the more arrogant that do even when they are not yet. Nothing in what Joseph said is any different then claims other have made. Each statement certainly can be viewed as unique for many different reasons.

Considering the number of boasts that Joseph made, evidence against the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, Zelph, etc, etc , etc and in particular the lack of evidence he made the claim at 17, I can only conclude he made it up after he was already famous and becoming more famous for good or bad.

[_mentalgymnast]

Either an angel came to Joseph and told him at around 17 or he made it up. If an angel came to him then not much else to discuss.

Yep, it all does come down to that. And there are precious few that would have been made directly privy to it. So there we have to leave it. Fun discussion though. Thanks for playing Darth, Themis, and others.

Regards,
MG

[_Buffalo]

Local Woman Just Knew She Would Win Lottery
http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/in ... ?itemid=82

[_mentalgymnast]

Local Woman Just Knew She Would Win Lottery
http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/in ... ?itemid=82

It's interesting to consider intuition vs. inspiration. Are they the same? If not, how are they different, in fact?

There are some that would say that it's just all intuition. There are others that would say that it's all inspiration... car keys or lost shoe anyone?

I probably fall somewhere in the middle. Like I do on a lot of things.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

My final post...

...that God had a work for [him] to do; and that [his] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

Hadn't Joseph Smith's name already been held for both good and evil by the time this account was recorded in his history? If so, it's not a prediction at all.

Tell you what, Sethbag. And I hope you don't consider this to be ridiculous <g>. If you think that pushing aside this prophecy can be done by throwing out a simple statement of denial or in Darth's case, an absolute requirement of proof that Joseph Smith actually said this or was witness to this prophecy at the age of seventeen, then do me a favor. Would you? Read this address by Whitney Clayton and then watch it. It's not only the "name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues" prophecy, but the Book of Daniel prophecy and other events that Elder Clayton refers to that give reinforcement and power to the first.

Whitney Clayton-October General Conference-2011

To watch, go to: http://LDS.org/general-conference/2011/ ... edia=video

The Time Shall Come
I served as a young missionary for several months in the central areas of Lima, Peru. As a result, I crossed Lima’s Plaza de Armas many times. The Government Palace, the official residence and office of Peru’s president, faces the plaza. My companions and I invited people in the plaza to hear the restored gospel. I often wondered then what it would be like to enter the palace, but the thought of ever doing so seemed wildly remote.

Last year, Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, a few others, and I met with Alan García, then the president of Peru, in the Government Palace. We were shown its beautiful rooms and cordially received by President García. My young missionary wonderings about the palace were fulfilled in a way that I would never have dreamed possible in 1970.

Things have changed in Peru since I was a missionary, especially for the Church. There were about 11,000 members of the Church there then and just one stake. Today there are more than 500,000 members and almost 100 stakes. In towns where there were just little groups of members, vibrant stakes and attractive meetinghouses now grace the land. The same thing has happened in many other countries around the world.

This remarkable Church growth deserves explanation. We begin with a prophecy from the Old Testament.

Daniel was a Hebrew slave in Babylon. He was given the opportunity to interpret King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Daniel asked God to reveal to him the dream and its interpretation, and his prayer was answered. He told Nebuchadnezzar, “There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. … The visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these.” Daniel said the king had seen a frightening image with a head, torso, arms, legs, and feet. A stone was cut out of a mountain without hands and rolled forth, gradually growing in size. That stone collided with the image, breaking it into pieces, “and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.”

Daniel explained that the image represented future political kingdoms and that “in the days of [those future] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: … but it shall break” these kingdoms into pieces and consume them. “And it shall stand for ever.”1

We now go to more recent times. The angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 and told him “that God had a work for [him] to do; and that [his] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues.”2 Moroni’s message surely must have astonished Joseph, who was just 17.

In 1831, the Lord told Joseph that the keys of the kingdom of God had again been “committed unto man on the earth.” He said the “gospel [would] roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands … , until it has filled the whole earth,”3 just as Daniel had told Nebuchadnezzar.

In 1898, President Wilford Woodruff recounted an experience he had as a new member in 1834 at a priesthood meeting in Kirtland. He related: “The Prophet called on all who held the Priesthood to gather into the little log school house they had there. It was a small house, perhaps 14 feet [4.3 m] square. … When we got together the Prophet called upon the Elders of Israel … to bear testimony of this work. … When they got through the Prophet said, ‘Brethren I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. … It is only a little handfull of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world.’”4

These prophecies that:

• the kingdom of God like a stone cut out of a mountain would fill the earth;
• the name of Joseph Smith would be known throughout the world; and
• the Church would fill the Americas and fill the world
might have seemed laughable 170 years ago. The little band of believers, eking out a living on the American frontier and moving to escape persecution, didn’t look like the foundation of a faith that would cross international borders and penetrate hearts everywhere.

But that is just what has happened. Let me give an example.

On Christmas Day 1925 in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Elder Melvin J. Ballard dedicated the entire continent of South America for the preaching of the gospel. By August 1926 a handful of converts had been baptized. They were the first members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints baptized in all of South America. That was 85 years ago, within the life span of many who are listening to conference today.

There are 23 stakes of Zion in Buenos Aires today, with dozens of stakes and tens of thousands of Church members in cities and towns across Argentina. Now there are well over 600 stakes and several million Church members throughout South America. While we watch, the kingdom of God is filling the continent, and the name of Joseph Smith is being published both by us and by his detractors in countries he may never even have heard of during his lifetime.

There are nearly 3,000 stakes in the worldwide Church today, from Boston to Bangkok and from Mexico City to Moscow. We are approaching 29,000 wards and branches. In many countries there are mature stakes, with members whose ancestors were converts. In others, small groups of new members meet as tiny Church branches in rented houses. Every year the Church spreads farther and farther across the globe.

These prophecies about filling the world and being known world over: Preposterous? Perhaps. Unlikely? Undoubtedly. Impossible? Emphatically no. It is happening before our eyes.

President Gordon B. Hinckley observed:

“It was said that at one time the sun never set on the British Empire. That empire has now been diminished. But it is true that the sun never sets on this work of the Lord as it is touching the lives of people across the earth.

“And this is only the beginning. We have scarcely scratched the surface. … Our work knows no boundaries. … Those nations now closed to us will someday be open.”5

Today we can see that the fulfillment of a Book of Mormon prophecy draws close:

“And … it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

“For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them.”6

This work of the Lord is indeed great and marvelous, but it moves forward essentially unnoticed by many of mankind’s political, cultural, and academic leaders. It progresses one heart and one family at a time, silently and unobtrusively, its sacred message blessing people everywhere.

A verse in the Book of Mormon provides a key to the miraculous growth of the Church today: “And moreover, I say unto you, that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.”7

Our most important message, which we are both divinely commissioned and commanded to take everywhere in the world, is that there is a Savior. He lived in the meridian of time. He atoned for our sins, was crucified, and was resurrected. That matchless message, which we proclaim with authority from God, is the real reason this Church grows as it does.

I testify that He appeared with His Father to Joseph Smith. Under the direction of the Father, He established His gospel anew upon the earth. He sent apostles, prophets, and priesthood keys to the earth again. He leads His Church through a living prophet, President Thomas S. Monson. His Church is that stone cut out of the mountain without hands that rolls forward across the globe.

We are grateful for Joseph Smith and watch with wonder as his name is revered and, yes, even reviled ever more widely across the earth. But we recognize that this mighty latter-day work is not about him. It is the work of Almighty God and His Son, the Prince of Peace. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Savior, and with you, I stand in awe as this work moves forward miraculously, marvelously, and irresistibly. Indeed, “the time [has] come when the knowledge of a Savior … spread[s] throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.” I bear testimony of Him, the Savior of all mankind, and of this work in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

That you and others can simply shrug this stuff off... is simply ridiculous ("yeah, I've given it my best effort and I've figured it all out...it's a sham/bogus," or something to that effect). The power behind the words of this General Authority has much more influence on me, and I would hope others, than your rather matter of fact dismissals/denials.

As I've said before in this forum, it is simply amazing to me that there are so many of you that are died in the wool and dogmatically and diametrically opposed to the church and its message. There seems to be no open space/ground inside of your minds for seriously looking at alternate points of view that are in opposition to your die hard, negative stance on the church.

And yet, you will come back and say something along the lines of "right back at ya" and ridicule the intelligence or thoughtfulness of those that actually believe this stuff. There are enough of you here to support and encourage one another in putting believers to shame, in one way or another, that it does make it rather a joke to hang out here and act as a punching bag.

Although, it has been rather enjoyable to banter back in forth.

I have actually gained a number of powerful insights and tid bits of information, from believers and non-believers, that I have been able to factor in, along with all of my own study and thinking, over the years.

Anyway, I think that the time has come for me to find other things to do with some of my discretionary time, so I will kindly bid you all adieu. I wish the best to those of you that I've had the chance to interact with and hope that life treats you well.

This will be my last post. It's been fun!!

Take care,
MG

[_hugh jass]

My final post...

Although, it has been rather enjoyable to banter back in forth.

It has also been fun watching you attempt to nail jello to the wall.

This will be my last post. It's been fun!!

Right.

[_Darth J]

Tell you what, Sethbag. And I hope you don't consider this to be ridiculous <g>. If you think that pushing aside this prophecy can be done by throwing out a simple statement of denial or in Darth's case,

You know, you say things like "simple statement of denial" and "moving the goalposts" and I'm a "weasel," but you never have explained what I am supposedly denying or what goalposts I am moving or what I am weaseling out of.

an absolute requirement of proof that Joseph Smith actually said this or was witness to this prophecy at the age of seventeen,

I don't know what an "absolute requirement of proof" means. How about "any proof at all"?

"Guess what, guys? A resurrected ancient American Hebrew teleported into my room I shared with my brothers and sisters and told me some really important things about the restoration of the Gospel, and I just remembered it 15 years later! How convenient that I remembered it right when I needed to remind everyone to follow me because my church was having problems!"

Note for our viewers: The FAIR wiki claims that the idea that Joseph Smith embellished Mormonism's foundational mythology during the leadership crisis of 1838 is itself a myth invented by "critics of the Church." To show how there was no such crisis, the FAIR wiki provides a timeline of cherry-picked events showing that faithful Mormons really believed in Joseph Smith. http://pt.fairmormon.org/First_Vision/A ... hip_crisis This selective reference to history omits things like the Mormon War, the economic problems in Kirtland, problems with dissenters, etc.

The FAIR wiki's assertion that there was no leadership crisis in 1838 is interesting, seeing as how the people working on the Joseph Smith Papers candidly admit to revelations related to the leadership crisis.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... 1_d1e54494

The revelations related to the leadership crisis and persecution in Kirtland and to the challenges of reordering church leadership and resources in Missouri.

then do me a favor. Would you? Read this address by Whitney Clayton and then watch it. It's not only the "name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues" prophecy, but the Book of Daniel prophecy and other events that Elder Clayton refers to that give reinforcement and power to the first.

Whitney Clayton-October General Conference-2011 [/snip]

Yeah, that's pretty standard restorationist grandiosity: "[insert religious movement here] will be known among every nation, kindred, tongue, etc., and also we are co-opting Daniel's prophecy as referring to our religious movement, too."

I've already given examples in this thread. The Jehovah's Witnesses say it about themselves:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_02.htm

The apostle Peter observed: “Jehovah . . . does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) And the apostle Paul stated that God’s “will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”—1 Timothy 2:4. To that end, Jehovah has wisely made sure that the “good news of the kingdom” is proclaimed far and wide, in hundreds of languages. People everywhere are being given the opportunity for survival and salvation. (Matthew 24:14; Psalm 37:34; Philippians 2:12) Those who respond favorably to the good news can.

The Seventh-day Adventists say it about themselves, too:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus . . . The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.

And both of these movements started extremely small, but have experienced world-wide growth comparable to that of the LDS Church (assuming for argument's sake that the Church's alleged number of adherents who are merely paper members accurately reflects how many people can really be called LDS in a meaningful sense).

That you and others can simply shrug this stuff off... is simply ridiculous ("yeah, I've given it my best effort and I've figured it all out...it's a sham/bogus," or something to that effect).

That you can be so nakedly beholden to confirmation bias is simply ridiculous. Other movements that arose during or near the Second Great Awakening have made similar predictions about themselves that have also come true. You keep pointing to this prophecy, for which there are no contemporaneous 1823 accounts, as evidence in favor of the truth claims of the LDS Church. However, that metric has also been satisfied by other, comparable religious movements. So this must be evidence that those other denominations are also The One True Church.

The one shrugging things off is you, because you refuse to acknowledge that the same metric you are using as evidence that "the Church is true!!!" is also used by believing members of other denominations as fulfillment of prophecy showing that their churches are true.

The power behind the words of this General Authority has much more influence on me, and I would hope others, than your rather matter of fact dismissals/denials.

A paid spokesman for the Church arguing in a vacuum is indeed influential to those who already believe what he is saying.

However, perhaps if a General Authority were to point out that movements like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Adventists also started small, also predicted their message would be heard throughout the world, also claimed Daniel's prophecies for themselves, and also have had growth comparable to that of the LDS Church, it might be slightly less influential and look more like standard operating procedure in restorationist, non-traditional Christian denominations. Of course, that would look a lot less miraculous and a lot less mundane. Maybe that's why he doesn't mention it. Or maybe it's just the ignorance of his LDS-centric worldview.

To the extent that you admit that other religious movements have done the same thing, you try to portray Joseph Smith as being unique because the years-later prophecy was about "his name." However, Joseph Smith decided to relate this story when it was very convenient to reaffirm faith in "his name." Additionally, you are acting as if the prediction about Joseph Smith and the prediction about the church are independent of each other in order to distinguish Joseph Smith's predictions about the growth of his church from the predictions of other religious leaders about their own churches. And yet, both in the talk you quote and in your own posts, invariably the fulfillment of this prophecy is claimed to be demonstrated by the growth of the church. Despite phrasing it in his own particular terms and mythos, that prediction does not make Mormonism distinctive from the rest of the marketplace.

As I've said before in this forum, it is simply amazing to me that there are so many of you that are died in the wool and dogmatically and diametrically opposed to the church and its message.

This from a person who summarily dismisses any suggestion that any sect of Mormonism besides the LDS one deserves to be considered as anything more than a footnote in history.

There seems to be no open space/ground inside of your minds for seriously looking at alternate points of view that are in opposition to your die hard, negative stance on the church.

You're right, Mentalgymnast. I have no idea what it's like to actually believe in this stuff. It's not as if I've had only a year and a half or so of not believing, and my entire life prior to that point believing.

There's certainly no existential crisis in coming to terms with your entire concept of the universe being a myth. It has no real personal, familial, or social ramifications, either. We all just shrug it off, blithely dismissing contrary evidence in support of our pre-conceived skepticism. It's not at all because we've already been down this road and don't find these arguments particularly profound or persuasive. It has nothing to do with intellectual, emotional, evidentiary, and even spiritual experiences indicating that the faith-promoting narrative is a fairytale. It's just casual disregard and "dismissive denial." Indeed, forsaking the religion that has previously informed your entire existence is no more serious a matter than taking off a pair of socks.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Jackass: The Sun sets in the North.

Rational Person: No it doesn't.

Jackass: Well, that's just because you don't believe the obvious AND the "North" direction is just some arbitrary direction.

Rational Person: No. The North is the Prime direction. The Sun sets at a 90 degree angle to the Prime direction. We generally call that angle the "West".

Jackass: I don't care to understand what you're saying. Nothing really exists, and anything you say is simply a fabrication of your mind.

Rational Person: You mean like your religious claims?

Jackass: No. That's for real.

Rational Person: So "North" is really "West" and I'm in error?

Jackass: No. North is North, and West is West. I was just helping you to understand your illogical ways.

Rational Person: Oh. So you agree the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

Jackass: No. Sheez you're stupid.

Rational Person: Help me to understand.

Jackass: The North is the North only when it suits my needs. The West is the West only when it suits my needs.

Rational Person: You're an idiot.

Jackass: Bigot!

- VRDRC

[_Themis]

As I've said before in this forum, it is simply amazing to me that there are so many of you that are died in the wool and dogmatically and diametrically opposed to the church and its message. There seems to be no open space/ground inside of your minds for seriously looking at alternate points of view that are in opposition to your die hard, negative stance on the church.

I have enjoyed your participation even if we don't see eye to eye. I think you have an incorrect perception of most here. I want the truth. Most of what you have brought up has major problems with it, and you seem unable to see that and then blame us for it. Unfortunate.

[_Themis]

Jackass: The Sun sets in the North.

Rational Person: No it doesn't.

What direction does the sun set in the Northern hemisphere just south of latitude 60 degrees around June 21?