Was Jesus a Mormon?

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_BrianH
_Emeritus
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _BrianH »

LDSToronto wrote:
BrianH wrote:R>No argument here, Brian. I find the Bible highly questionable too. Is there some reason I should find its myths more believable than Mormon myths?

The fact that you cannot distinguish between the myths of Mormonism and the many thousands of indisputable historical facts recorded in the Bible has no bearing on the topic here. But now that you have made it clear that you do not believe the claims of Mormonism, there is no reason for you to pretend to be defending them. Obviously YOU do not have any reason to believe that the LDS really have restored the supposedly "lost" teachings of Christ. You appear to be here only to try to change the subject to drive YOUR agenda of complaining about the Bible - a topic with which you are are obviously unfamiliar. But again, unless the Bible records Jesus or perhaps his apostles teaching the doctrines that Mormons attribute to him, it is irrelevant to this challenge - a challenge you are obviously not here to even try to meet.

So there is really nothing left to discuss here. So ...<snip>


Biblical myths not supported by historical sources other than the Bible (from Wikipedia)

1 Marriage at Cana John 2:1-11
2 Exorcism at the Synagogue in Capernaum, Mark 1:21-28, Luke 4:31-37
3 Miraculous draught of fishes, Luke 5:1-11
4 Young Man from Nain Luke 7:11-17
5 Cleansing a leper Matthew 8:1-4, Mark 1:40-45, Luke 5:12-16
6 The Centurion's Servant Matthew 8:5-13, Luke 7:1-10, John 4:46-54
7 Healing the mother of Peter's wife, Matthew 8:14-17, Mark 1:29-34, Luke 4:38-41
8 Exorcising at sunset, Matthew 8:16-17, Mark 1:32-34, Luke 4:40-41
9 Calming the storm Matthew 8:23-27 Mark 4:35-41 Luke 8:22-25
10 Gerasenes demonic Matthew 8:28-34 Mark 5:1-20 Luke 8:26-39
11 Paralytic at Capernaum Matthew 9:1-8 Mark 2:1-12 Luke 5:17-26
12 Daughter of Jairus Matthew 9:18-26 Mark 5:21-43 Luke 8:40-56
13 The Bleeding Woman Matthew 9:20-22 Mark 5:24-34 Luke 8:43-48
14 Two Blind Men at Galilee Matthew 9:27-31
15 Exorcising a mute Matthew 9:32-34
16 Paralytic at Bethesda John 5:1-18
17 Man with withered Hand Matthew 12:9-13 Mark 3:1-6 Luke 6:6-11
18 Exorcising the blind and mute man Matthew 12:22-28 Mark 3:20-30 Luke 11:14-23
19 An Infirm Woman Luke 13:10-17
20 Feeding the 5000 Matthew 14:13-21 Mark 6:31-34 Luke 9:10-17 John 6:5-15
21 Walking on water Matthew 14:22-33 Mark 6:45-52 John 6:16-21
22 Healing in Gennesaret Matthew 14:34-36 Mark 6:53-56
23 Canaanite woman's daughter Matthew 15:21-28 Mark 7:24-30
24 Deaf mute of Decapolis Mark 7:31-37
25 Feeding the 4000 Matthew 15:32-39 Mark 8:1-9
26 Blind Man of Bethsaida Mark 8:22-26
27 Transfiguration of Jesus Matthew 17:1-13 Mark 9:2-13 Luke 9:28-36
28 Boy possessed by a demon Matthew 17:14-21 Mark 9:14-29 Luke 9:37-49
29 Coin in the fish's mouth Matthew 17:24-27
30 Man with dropsy Luke 14:1-6
31 Cleansing ten lepers Luke 17:11-19
32 The Blind at Birth John 9:1-12
33 Blind near Jericho Matthew 20:29-34 Mark 10:46-52 Luke 18:35-43
34 Raising of Lazarus John 11:1-44
35 Cursing the fig tree Matthew 21:18-22 Mark 11:12-14
36 Healing the ear of a servant Luke 22:49-51
37 Catch of 153 fish

Oh, never mind the virgin birth and the Resurrection of Jesus...

Show us why we should believe in these historically unsupported biblical myths and *then* we can start talking about why your rejection of Mormon myths is acceptable.

H.


Your answer is irrational. Just because there are things in the 4,000 year record documented in the Bible that are not supported by historical findings is no reason to think that there is NO evidence for any others. Even an elementary-level of familiarity with the field of Biblical Archaeology or even basic historical reality would have made that simple, self-evident fact obvious to you.

Moreover, most of your examples above are things that would not leave anything in the way of evidence other than the testimony of the eye-witnesses to begin with! What ...do you really expect there to be archaeological evidence that would survive 2,000 to 5,000 years of history that would prove that a wedding occured, that a storm was calmed, of a man being healed, a fish being caught, a man walking on water? If you DO think that there would be some kind of evidence that could survive for thousands of years of such events, then please identify it and substantiate that expectation with some examples. If you cannot do that, then your entire premise here is demonstrated as baseless.

-BH

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Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Drifting
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _Drifting »

Brian,

Does baptism by immersion count?

Jesus set the example (according to the Bible record) by being baptised in this manner by John the Baptist.
And Baptism by full immersion is pretty much uniquely doctrinal within Mormonism.

Would that example fit your OP question?
Did the Lord Jesus Christ ever believe, teach or practice the distinguishing doctrines and practices of the LDS church which exists on the claim to have "restored" his gospel and which we would recognize as uniquely "Mormon" doctrines and practices.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Brian,

One would expect historical sources to be available for such miraculous events. You know... Tablets... Scrolls... Anything from a secular contemporary source providing corroborating testimony.

Anything aside from that is a self-licking ice cream cone, my friend.

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_BrianH
_Emeritus
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _BrianH »

Drifting wrote:Brian,

Does baptism by immersion count?

Jesus set the example (according to the Bible record) by being baptised in this manner by John the Baptist.
And Baptism by full immersion is pretty much uniquely doctrinal within Mormonism.

Would that example fit your OP question?


Hi there MR. D...

No, sorry, that will not do. Here is why: While not a "doctrine", the practice of full immersion baptism was never "lost" in the first place. We have clear and unmistakable accounts of this practice in the Bible and in volumes of exta-biblical accounts beginning in the earliest days of the Christian church (see the 2nd C. Shepheard of Hermas for example where you will find a detailed account of this practice). Having never been lost it is impossible for the LDS church to have "restored" it.

Secondly, this practice is not in any way unique to Mormonism. Countless Christian churches down through the ages have routinely performed full immersion baptism, from the New Testament era to the Eastern Orthodoxies (Greek, Syrian, Indian, etc.), the Coptics and others down to several denominations that originated centuries before Joseph Smith was even born. The Baptists are just one example of these. Many Anabaptist churches provide other examples of Christian churches that practiced the continuing tradition of full immersion baptism.

Thank you

-BH

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_Drifting
_Emeritus
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _Drifting »

Okay Brian, I shall buy another raffle ticket...


Would the structure of the restored Mormon Church being the same as the Church Jesus set up, suggest that Jesus, were he here today, be a Mormon?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Drifting
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _Drifting »

This is what Mormon Missionaries teach is 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ'

1. Faith
2. Repentance
3. Baptism (by immersion)
4. The Gift of the Holy Ghost
5. Endure to the end

Brian - what on this list DIDN'T Jesus teach about when he was alive on the Earth?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_consiglieri
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _consiglieri »

BrianH wrote: While not a "doctrine", the practice of full immersion baptism was never "lost" in the first place. We have clear and unmistakable accounts of this practice in the Bible and in volumes of exta-biblical accounts beginning in the earliest days of the Christian church (see the 2nd C. Shepheard of Hermas for example where you will find a detailed account of this practice). Having never been lost it is impossible for the LDS church to have "restored" it.


Careful about citing the Shepherd of Hermas as authoritative, big fella.

This particular volume of the Apostolic Fathers also teaches baptism for the dead.

This was lost.

The LDS Church restored it.

Game. Point. Match.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_BrianH
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _BrianH »

Drifting wrote:This is what Mormon Missionaries teach is 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ'

1. Faith
2. Repentance
3. Baptism (by immersion)
4. The Gift of the Holy Ghost
5. Endure to the end

Brian - what on this list DIDN'T Jesus teach about when he was alive on the Earth?


Your premise is false. You have left out many uniquely LDS docrines taught at various times by the LDS "prophets" and "scriptures" under the rubrick of a supposed "restoration" including:

polygamy
polytheism
the Jesus-Satan brotherhood
the exaltation of men into gods
the doctirne of God the Father as a mere demigod
secret handshakes and passwords required to join the Mormon pantheon

As for your list above, well exactly NONE of them are in any way even close to unique to Mormonism. Each and every one of them have been continuously affirmed by Christian chruches ever since there were any Christian churches, so the idea that the LDS "prophet" somehow "restored" them is an oxymoron.

-BH

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_consiglieri
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Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _consiglieri »

I am sure you are getting ready to respond to why it is baptism for the dead is taught in the Shepherd of Hermas, Brian.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Yoda

Re: Was Jesus a Mormon?

Post by _Yoda »

consiglieri wrote:I am sure you are getting ready to respond to why it is baptism for the dead is taught in the Shepherd of Hermas, Brian.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri


*reaching for the popcorn*
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