It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

[_Droopy]

I don't think any serious person doubts that you're a closeted, self-loathing homosexual.

On whats grounds?

[_Droopy]

Support your assertions with an argument.

Your first. I've never seen you do that, once, since you've been in this forum, and this is a very old debate that's been beaten to a pulp here many times before. Put up yourself or shut up.

[_subgenius]

And now homosexuality is analogous to murder.

maybe in your mind it does, but that would be a rather inept application of logic or reasoning.

if it makes you feel better substitute "..feller that wrestles with his deep desire to drink beer and watch porn in his basement"

Contradiction and having to "choose" in life is hardly a unique and tragic burden...especially when that choice may be one that is irritated by a potential adverse psychological condition.

next time read for comprehension

[_Morley]

What about the feller that wrestles with his deep desire to kill teenage girls in his basement?
He tried to be a good person, but the crushing burden...blah blah blah

I do not understand your logic with your anecdote.

It is well known that Sigmund Freud considered homosexual behavior as a natural stage in normal human sexual development...and adult homosexuals had simply suffered from a retardation of that development, for whatever cause.
A psychological abnormality does not necessarily entitle one to special permissions, it may merit compassion and/or treatment but it in no way offers them permission for their behavior.

And no one is denying anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, the ability to have "love, companionship, intimacy"....but it is, in my judgment and as supported by science and morality, wrong to expect society to support and subsidize same-sex marriage.

When you cite Nineteenth Century science, it has a much validity as when you cite Nineteenth Century Mormon theology. So what's next, the Mark of Cain doctrine as applied to homosexuality?

[Guest]

if it makes you feel better substitute "..feller that wrestles with his deep desire to drink beer and watch porn in his basement"

Sure, because murdering teenagers and drinking beer and watching porn and being a homosexual are all the same in the end. Tell me more.

[_Morley]

Support your assertions with an argument.

Done
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/us/26 ... r=homepage
Justice Madsen wrote that the plaintiffs were not entitled to such review because they had not demonstrated that homosexuality is an immutable characteristic like race or gender.

Wow. A five year-old Washington State Supreme Court split decision. That's your best shot?

[_Buffalo]

Support your assertions with an argument.

Your first. I've never seen you do that, once, since you've been in this forum, and this is a very old debate that's been beaten to a pulp here many times before. Put up yourself or shut up.

What assertions have I made? And what defense of your self-loathing homophobia have you ever made that didn't rely on ipse dixit and ad hominems?

[_Buffalo]

Take another look at this, John. This is pseudoscience, at best.

Support your assertion with facts. Point to legitimate studies that overturn Runtu's sources.

[_Buffalo]

I don't think any serious person doubts that you're a closeted, self-loathing homosexual.

On whats grounds?

On the grounds that you're obviously attracted to men, and obviously hate that about yourself.

[_Droopy]

On my mission, I worked for six months in the mission office. My companion and I became very close friends, and after the mission we were roommates at BYU. He was about as straight-arrow Mormon as one could be, and he was more diligent in scripture study and prayer and temple attendance than anyone I knew. He loved the gospel, and he loved God. Sometimes I thought he went overboard in his piety, but I admired his faith and saw in him an example for me. But one thing that was obvious about him was that he didn't like himself very much. He was extremely self-critical and was constantly berating himself for his perceived failures.

I did not know at the time that he was struggling with homosexuality, and it is obvious in retrospect that he was in love with me. We roomed together for two semesters, and then I got married. He was teaching Spanish at the MTC, and he became friendly with another MTC instructor. They became roommates and then his roommate confessed that he, too, was gay. Apparently, they had sexual contact once or twice, and they both went to the bishop, who sent them to BYU's counseling service. He won't talk about what happened there, but given that it was the 80s, I can guess.

At the urging of priesthood leaders, he began dating women. He married a woman someone fixed him up with, and from what I can see, he no longer has to berate himself, because she does it for him. They don't sleep on the same floor of their house, let alone the same room. He sleeps in the basement. They don't have sex, and he pretty much takes care of their adopted children by himself. For a long time, he was completely faithful to his wife, but miserable. After his wife outed him as gay at a Relief Society dinner, his ward ostracized him.

Over the last several years, I've seen him on a downward spiral of self-loathing. He started drinking heavily, and he apparently has started hanging out in places to pick up a quick hand job or blow job. The last time I talked to him, he had crashed his car because he was drunk and had spent the night in jail. When I found out how much he was drinking, I told him I was worried he was going to kill himself. He replied, "What makes you think I'm not trying to kill myself?"

So then, according to this story, this man's homosexuality was the cause of a long, downward spiral of self destructive behavior, beginning with his deception of his wife before marriage, his destruction of her dreams and hopes and her consequent hostility and estrangement from his wife eventuating in the destruction of the marriage, his refusal to deal with his SSA as the gospel directs and instead, accept it as an inherent aspect of his being, and then, when his secret is finally made public, he takes the very typical homosexual path of self destruction through alcohol/drugs.

This is the classic pattern of much male homosexual life throughout modern history, and is why homosexuality qua homosexuality can be easily classified as pathological and destructive in and of itself. It is tragic, yes, but the tragedy is not in the outing that occurred, or the inability of his wife to accept his sexual inclinations, or in the Ward shunning him, right or wrong as that may be, but in that homosexuality is utterly incompatible with happiness and self fulfillment as a child of God in mortality. As Alma 4 tells us:

Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

What has happened to your friend is the natural, inevitable consequence of living in opposition to, or out of harmony with, the nature of happiness. He is out of harmony with the laws of the universe (gospel), and, irrespective of whether all the actions of his wife (for whom I do not see the slightest empathy from you) or some members of the ward were perfectly righteous, the consequences of accepting his homosexuality as is and coming to see himself as "gay" (as opposed to being attracted to those of the same sex, and leaving it at that while he seeks the meaning and resolution to this mortal struggle) is what is and is going to be, so long as he continues on the assumption that he is Gay, at his very core, and draws no line and takes no stand against it within his own soul.