G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexual Allegations

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_Darth J
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:
Equality wrote:Law's only crime was breaking omerta, the law of silence. I suppose you would also condemn Sammy the Bull Gravano as being not credible, and a troublemaker. At least he was from the perspective of those on whom he informed. I mean, the mob bosses already knew they were committing crimes, so Gravano's telling the cops about it wasn't whistleblowing; it was troublemaking. Right?
Wrong. If he felt there was wrong-doing going on, he certainly could have gone to the state officials with his accusations. They certainly weren't friendly with Joseph Smith. That is not what he did.


And that is entirely irrelevant as to whether the claims of fact in the Nauvoo Expositor were true. The dichotomy you are presenting---either tell governmental authorities or publish it in a newspaper---exists nowhere in American law or tradition. In fact, the suggestion that it was somehow devious to publish in a newspaper the scandalous personal conduct of a public official is contrary to the purposes of freedom of the press.

Your fatuous reasoning would mean that Woodward and Bernstein were somehow unethical for their investigative journalism into the Watergate affair, which led to the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon. Or for another example of a con man exposed by the press first and then law enforcement, there is Charles Ponzi. The Boston Post broke the story that Ponzi's company was hopelessly insolvent, and thus could not possibly pay off the investors who were being defrauded. Ponzi was indicted after the newspaper story was printed. So as with Watergate, according to your ethical standards of journalism, it was wrong for the Post to publish this story---even though in both of these examples and in many others, it is the publication of the story that forces law enforcement into action.

The membership were not a concern actually. They already had seen the publication and rejected it. The concern and why it was shutdown was it would incite those outside the church.


Kind of odd for people looking to incite the enemies of the Mormons to state the following in their paper:

We all verily believe, and many of us know of a surety, that the religion of the Latter Day Saints, as originally taught by Joseph Smith, which is contained in the Old and New Testaments, Book of Covenants, and Book of Mormon, is verily true; and that the pure principles set forth in those books, are the immutable and eternal principles of Heaven, and speaks a language which, when spoken in truth and virtue, sinks deep into the heart of every honest man. — Its precepts are invigorating, and in every sense of the word, tend to dignify and ennoble man's conceptions of God and his atributes. It speaks a language which is heard amidst the roar of Artillery, as well as in the silence of midnight: it speaks a language understood by the incarcerated spirit, as well as he who is unfettered and free; yet to those who will not see, it is dark, mysterious, and secret as the grave.

Equality wrote:What was slanderous? Point to something in the Expositor that Law said that wasn't true. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you say polygamy wasn't a secret; that people knew about it or could have known about it, and that it was no big deal. Then you say that what Law was saying was "slanderous" and "non-sense." Which is it? Old hat common knowledge or slanderous non-sense?
Oh please, read it yourself. I'm not going to get into it with you since you have excused his diary entries already, which contain awful stuff as well. Here is a link for objective readers to make up their own mind http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_source%20...%20_Full_Text


The contents of William Law's personal diary were not printed in the Nauvoo Expositor, and are therefore irrelevant to the assertion you have made. And printed defamation is libel, not slander.

Your claim of "public nuisance" is not only circular reasoning, but a misstatement of law. The Nauvoo City Charter specifically incorporated the rights found in the U.S. Constitution. That means that freedom of the press under the First Amendment was a substantive right under Nauvoo municipal law, and that's before even talking about freedom of the press under the Illinois state constitution.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Charter

The City Council shall have powers and authority to levy and collect taxes upon all property, real and personal, within the city, not exceeding one-half per cent., per annum, upon the assessed valuation thereof, and may enforce the payment of the same in any manner prescribed by ordinance, not repugnant to the Constitution of the United States and of this State.

There was not at that time any legal justification for the suppression of the Expositor or the destruction of its press. William Law and the other publishers electing not to pursue legal action against Joseph Smith, his estate, or anyone else has no bearing on the legality of the destruction of the press. The choice to waive a right of action does not mean that your right of action does not exist.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Equality
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Equality »

Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:I'll give Tobin a backrub if he can even point out a single lie in the Expositor. And I'm pretty good at backrubs.
Actually, I could, but I'm not going to. The reason is the statements in Law's diary are just as bad and those have been dismissed. I just don't feel like playing an endless game of "it is too slanderous, it is not slanderous". Easy to nip it in the bud and let the reader decide if they agree or not.


Since you keep bringing up the diary, let's examine the quote you gave us from it:
He claimed to be a god, whereas he was only a servant of the Devil, and as such met his fate.


There are three statements here:
1. He (Joseph Smith) claimed to be a god. This is a factual assertion. If Joseph Smith did, in fact, claim to be a god, then this statement is not slanderous. Joseph Smith did, in fact, claim to be a god, according to not only William Law but other close associates of Smith who knew him and claimed to hear him say it. Are you disputing this as a factual matter? Are you saying that Law lied about this fact? (You realize that if Law lied about this so did a number of Smith's most faithful and ardent followers, right?)

2. Whereas he was only the servant of the Devil. This is an opinion and, as such, cannot qualify as a slanderous statement (since these statements were in written form in a diary, they would actually be libelous, not slanderous, but that's a technicality. Also, I don't think law published his diary, so you'd have a real hard time proving libel on a statement written in a personal diary that the author did not publish.)

3. as such met his fate. Again, an opinion. Nothing slanderous. Clearly, by June 27, 1844, after having had his property destroyed and taken from him, the lives of him and his wife threatened, his reputation smeared by a campaign of misinformation waged by Joseph Smith and his cronies, William Law understandably was less than broken up over Smith's unfortunate demise. If anything, his journal entry is rather understated.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_Darth J
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:I'll give Tobin a backrub if he can even point out a single lie in the Expositor. And I'm pretty good at backrubs.
Actually, I could, but I'm not going to. The reason is the statements in Law's diary are just as bad and those have been dismissed. I just don't feel like playing an endless game of "it is too slanderous, it is not slanderous". Easy to nip it in the bud and let the reader decide if they agree or not.


Publication is an essential element of defamation. By definition, private statements in William Law's unpublished diary could not possibly be defamatory, even assuming for argument's sake that any of the statements were false.

However, as you have explicitly decided to rest on argument by assertion, I am likewise standing by my assertion that Joseph Smith had a homosexual affair with Brigham Young.
_Tobin
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Tobin »

Equality wrote:I have read it myself, as have many others. We can't find anything slanderous in it. Everything Law said about Smith was true. Nothing was slanderous. YOU have made the assertion that Law slandered Smith in the Expositor. You must have something specific in mind. If you point to it we can discuss it. Whenever you are asked to show specific facts supporting your assertions, you throw up some dust into the air and disappear in a cloud.
Well, as I've said, then there is no point in me trying to convince then since there are some very obvious slanderous statements in there. I'll let people read it themselves and decide. I'm perfectly fine with that.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Runtu »

If nothing else, this thread is a great example of the ad hoc and obfuscating nature of apologetics.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Tobin »

Darth J wrote:Publication is an essential element of defamation. By definition, private statements in William Law's unpublished diary could not possibly be defamatory, even assuming for argument's sake that any of the statements were false.

However, as you have explicitly decided to rest on argument by assertion, I am likewise standing by my assertion that Joseph Smith had a homosexual affair with Brigham Young.
What? I really don't understand how you got here at all, but ok. Have fun. Wow.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Darth J
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:
Equality wrote:I have read it myself, as have many others. We can't find anything slanderous in it. Everything Law said about Smith was true. Nothing was slanderous. YOU have made the assertion that Law slandered Smith in the Expositor. You must have something specific in mind. If you point to it we can discuss it. Whenever you are asked to show specific facts supporting your assertions, you throw up some dust into the air and disappear in a cloud.
Well, as I've said, then there is no point in me trying to convince then since there are some very obvious slanderous statements in there. I'll let people read it themselves and decide. I'm perfectly fine with that.


I would like to bear my testimony that I know the Church is true, that there was a vast, advanced pre-Columbian society of Christian Hebrews in the Americas that lasted for a thousand years but left no trace of its existence, and that the Nauvoo Expositor said a bunch of lies.

In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
_Darth J
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:
Darth J wrote:Publication is an essential element of defamation. By definition, private statements in William Law's unpublished diary could not possibly be defamatory, even assuming for argument's sake that any of the statements were false.

However, as you have explicitly decided to rest on argument by assertion, I am likewise standing by my assertion that Joseph Smith had a homosexual affair with Brigham Young.
What? I really don't understand how you got here at all, but ok. Have fun. Wow.


I got here by registering for this board in May 2010.
_Chap
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Chap »

Tobin wrote:
Darth J wrote:Publication is an essential element of defamation. By definition, private statements in William Law's unpublished diary could not possibly be defamatory, even assuming for argument's sake that any of the statements were false.

However, as you have explicitly decided to rest on argument by assertion, I am likewise standing by my assertion that Joseph Smith had a homosexual affair with Brigham Young.
What? I really don't understand how you got here at all, but ok. Have fun. Wow.


Darth J wrote:
I got here by registering for this board in May 2010.


It is very wrong of you to tease little Toby like that. He doesn't understand.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Buffalo
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Re: G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexu

Post by _Buffalo »

Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:I'll give Tobin a backrub if he can even point out a single lie in the Expositor. And I'm pretty good at backrubs.


Actually, I could, but I'm not going to.


No you can't. If you had anything, you'd put up. So no backrubs for you.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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