Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

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_malkie
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _malkie »

maklelan wrote:The church has issued a statement:

The positions attributed to BYU professor Randy Bott in a recent Washington Post article absolutely do not represent the teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. BYU faculty members do not speak for the Church. It is unfortunate that the Church was not given a chance to respond to what others said.

The Church’s position is clear—we believe all people are God’s children and are equal in His eyes and in the Church. We do not tolerate racism in any form.

For a time in the Church there was a restriction on the priesthood for male members of African descent. It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church but what is clear is that it ended decades ago. Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine. The Church is not bound by speculation or opinions given with limited understanding.

We condemn racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the Church.

"Some have attempted to explain the reason ...", followed by "these attempts should be viewed ...".

In other words, "we" will talk about the attempt to explain the reason, but neither the explanation of the reason, nor the reason itself.

I think that President McKay was quite clear, in the 1949 1st Presidency letter, that the reason was doctrine, notwithstanding this "attempt to explain" smokescreen.
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_keithb
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _keithb »

Buffalo wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:Joanna Brooks has now weighed in on her blog:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... ntroversy/


She links to Bott's blog, which she rightly calls apologetic prevarication:

http://ldskyr.blogspot.com/2010/04/did- ... didn't.html



Maybe I'm late to the party here ... but did anyone else notice that this blog has been deleted?
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
_just me
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _just me »

keithb wrote:

Maybe I'm late to the party here ... but did anyone else notice that this blog has been deleted?


That particular article has been saved. We have it here on the thread and it's on BCC (from what I hear). I've got it up on my laptop still, too.

Poor guy, it ain't goin' nowhere.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_keithb
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _keithb »

just me wrote:
keithb wrote:

Maybe I'm late to the party here ... but did anyone else notice that this blog has been deleted?


That particular article has been saved. We have it here on the thread and it's on BCC (from what I hear). I've got it up on my laptop still, too.

Poor guy, it ain't goin' nowhere.


Nice :D
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
_malkie
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _malkie »

Kishkumen wrote:This is another fine example of how ex-Mormons, anti-Mormons, and critics will criticize the LDS Church of yesterday in order to hurt the LDS Church of today. This is obviously a tough issue, like polygamy, for which there are no easy answers. Religions are filled with these problems. If you don't want to believe, that's one thing, but the Schadenfreude that erupts whenever these things come up gets really old after a while. Yeah, I get it: there is racism, and it used to be a more fundamental part of Mormonism. I am ready to move on now.

And that should be the point, right? Seeing that the racism does not regain strength in Mormonism so that Mormons can be better, happier Mormons. Not rubbing it in Mormons' faces because you don't think such a thing as Mormonism should exist, right?

Kishkumen, I admire your sentiment. I often feel this way when I read your posts. In fact, your posts frequently leave me feeling a little ashamed of myself.

That said, it is difficult to resist the opportunity to exacerbate the discomfort of church leaders in cases like this because of the possibility that a little pressure applied at such times may eventually lead to leaders and ordinary members considering the idea that there is a still way to go to remedy past wrongs.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Loran Blood's long lost brother just posted in DCP's thread, the following:

Perhaps blacks were not valiant in the pre-mortal war. Perhaps they initially sided with Lucifer, but were only barely persuaded at the last minute to follow Jesus Christ, fearing the imminent prospect of forever losing their right to be born. Culturally, blacks are and have been the least self reliant and the most prone to seek entitlements from state and federal governments. What percentage of America's population on welfare are blacks? I don't know, but I'm guessing the majority of welfare recipients are black. It's not racist, it's demographics. Most blacks vote liberal. Liberalism promotes socialism and dependency on government entitlements at taxpayer expense. It's not racism, it's politics.

Look at the behavior of every African government toward its own people. Blacks oppressing blacks. Most crimes against blacks are committed by blacks. Imagine that cultural mentality being given priesthood authority prematurely, just to be politically correct and placate someone's fear of being labeled a racist. Imagine prematurely handing the authority of God to a culture prone to the despotic exercise of even the authority of man. Call me a racist. I'm not one, but I am taking a big risk by speculating on this matter in a public forum.

Bottom line: Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, and he has his reasons for the timing of blacks getting the priesthood in 1978. I don't know the reasons behind it. I enjoy speculating, but at the end of the day, I will align myself with the words of the prophets, even if I do not agree with them or understand them.
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _just me »

Kevin Graham wrote:Loran Blood's long lost brother just posted in DCP's thread, the following:

Perhaps blacks were not valiant in the pre-mortal war. Perhaps they initially sided with Lucifer, but were only barely persuaded at the last minute to follow Jesus Christ, fearing the imminent prospect of forever losing their right to be born. Culturally, blacks are and have been the least self reliant and the most prone to seek entitlements from state and federal governments. What percentage of America's population on welfare are blacks? I don't know, but I'm guessing the majority of welfare recipients are black. It's not racist, it's demographics. Most blacks vote liberal. Liberalism promotes socialism and dependency on government entitlements at taxpayer expense. It's not racism, it's politics.

Look at the behavior of every African government toward its own people. Blacks oppressing blacks. Most crimes against blacks are committed by blacks. Imagine that cultural mentality being given priesthood authority prematurely, just to be politically correct and placate someone's fear of being labeled a racist. Imagine prematurely handing the authority of God to a culture prone to the despotic exercise of even the authority of man. Call me a racist. I'm not one, but I am taking a big risk by speculating on this matter in a public forum.

Bottom line: Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, and he has his reasons for the timing of blacks getting the priesthood in 1978. I don't know the reasons behind it. I enjoy speculating, but at the end of the day, I will align myself with the words of the prophets, even if I do not agree with them or understand them.


Oh..my god. It's like reading parody...but not.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_maklelan
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _maklelan »

Jack, I disagree with one of the comments from your blog post. You state, "those pre-1978 rationales for the priesthood ban were never recanted by the church, and Randy Bott is hardly out of line for continuing to believe in things that former prophets and apostles taught." This is untrue. The church has never proclaimed in any kind of official capacity that this or that explanation is formally repudiated, but leaders have denounced those rationales since the 70s. Even before 1978 the church claimed that the exact rationale for the ban was unknown. From a 1969 First Presidency statement:

From the beginning of this dispensation, Joseph Smith and all succeeding presidents of the Church have taught that Negroes, while spirit children of a common Father, and the progeny of our earthly parents Adam and Eve, were not yet to receive the priesthood, for reasons which we believe are known to God, but which He has not made fully known to man.


Here is Bruce R. McConkie to CES employees in 1978:

Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.


Here is Elder Oaks in a 1988 Deseret News article:

Some people put reasons to [the ban] and they turned out to be spectacularly wrong. There is a lesson in that . . . . The lesson I've drawn from that, I decided a long time ago that I had faith in the command and I had no faith in the reasons that had been suggested for it. . . . I'm referring to reasons given by general authorities and reasons elaborated upon [those reasons] by others. The whole set of reasons seemed to me to be unnecessary risk taking. . . . Let's [not] make the mistake that's been made in the past, here and in other areas, trying to put reasons to revelation. The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent.


Oaks states that he decided in 1961 that he would never try to put reasons to it, since it would just "reaffirm your prejudices." He also states that he was asked by President Kimball before the revelation what he thought the reasons for the ban were, and he said he had no idea. Here is Jeffrey R. Holland on the PBS special on Mormons:

They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. . . . I think we can be unequivocal and we can be declarative in our current literature, in books that we reproduce, in teachings that go forward, whatever, that from this time forward, from 1978 forward, we can make sure that nothing of that is declared. That may be where we still need to make sure that we're absolutely dutiful, that we put [a] careful eye of scrutiny on anything from earlier writings and teachings, just [to] make sure that that's not perpetuated in the present. That's the least, I think, of our current responsibilities on that topic.


In addition to these comments from the authorities, Mormon and non-Mormon scholarship dating back to the 60s has unilaterally shown that the reasons given for the ban are not based on sound exegesis of any scriptural text, any purported revelation or official declaration, were inconsistently promoted by the church, and haven't been promoted by the leadership since the ban was lifted. Is "we don't know" a thoroughly honest and objective answer? Of course not. We do know. Church leaders were just as much as much caught up in America's racist rhetoric as any other social conservatives, and conventionalized practices and policies in the church became de facto doctrine. Now I don't doubt Bott was raised in the church to believe certain things about the ban, but as an expert in Church doctrine living in 2012, he should have been aware of both the extensive scholarship and extensive general authority statements that reject the doctrinal grounds for the speculation that he offered in that interview. He also should have been aware of the crap storm that such a condescending position would raise.

In my mind, trying to paint Bott as a sacrificial lamb or a modern day John D. Lee is rather weak rhetoric that serves only to spin the church's response into an opportunity to further rail against it for not offering a formal and official mea culpa. I would personally like to see the church do just that, but I don't think this is a productive way to try to twist the church's arm.
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _just me »

malkie and maklelan will you please reload your avatars.. I would be so grateful. :)
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
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Re: Popular BYU Randy Bott Takes Heat for Comments

Post by _malkie »

just me wrote:malkie and maklelan will you please reload your avatars.. I would be so grateful. :)

I can see mine just fine - but will (of course) do as you ask (;=).
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