Apostasy's A Bummer

[_Drifting]

You're putting words in my mouth.

I asked if Don thought it was possible to have a belief in the spiritual teachings and doctrine contained within the Book of Abraham without having a belief in the authenticity of its claimed historical origin.

Don declined to answer, how about you?

I've already answered that. I do not believe the Book of Abraham was translated from the papyrus. It is an origin story. It was shown to Joseph Smith by the Lord and he wrote it down. The impetus for this was the Egyptian papyrus and there is no evidence that Joseph Smith could read hieroglyphics or had any idea what was actually contained in the Egyptian papyrus.

That's an interesting hypothesis.
However Joseph specifically stated (as is replicated at the start of the book) that Abraham literally wrote it down on the papyrus. Why would he say that if that wasn't what happened?

[_Tobin]

That's an interesting hypothesis.
However Joseph specifically stated (as is replicated at the start of the book) that Abraham literally wrote it down on the papyrus. Why would he say that if that wasn't what happened?

Joseph Smith stated a lot of things and was often full of himself and thought he knew a lot more than he really did about many things. I see him as a very flawed human character that did and said rather goofy and unhelpful things. The thing you need to realize is that the Lord works with us, no matter how flawed we are. That is true of Joseph Smith too and assuming that just because the Lord used Joseph Smith doesn't mean he was perfect or got it always correct. That is a flawed assumption that many Mormons make and they shouldn't. They should use their own reason, intelligence, and study things out and seek inspiration from God themselves. And the fact is that the papyrus isn't that old and couldn't have been physically written by the hand of Abraham. It is Egyptian in origin and would only contain their myths.

[_Chap]

That's an interesting hypothesis.
However Joseph specifically stated (as is replicated at the start of the book) that Abraham literally wrote it down on the papyrus. Why would he say that if that wasn't what happened?

Joseph Smith stated a lot of things and was often full of himself and thought he knew a lot more than he really did about many things. I see him as a very flawed human character that did and said rather goofy and unhelpful things. The thing you need to realize is that the Lord works with us, no matter how flawed we are. That is true of Joseph Smith too and assuming that just because the Lord used Joseph Smith doesn't mean he was perfect or got it always correct. That is a flawed assumption that many Mormons make and they shouldn't. They should use their own reason, intelligence, and study things out and seek inspiration from God themselves. And the fact is that the papyrus isn't that old and couldn't have been physically written by the hand of Abraham. It is Egyptian in origin and would only contain their myths.

Tobin states a lot of things and is often full of himself and thinks he knows a lot more than he really does about many things. I see him as a very flawed human character that does and says rather goofy and unhelpful things.

[_Drifting]

That's an interesting hypothesis.
However Joseph specifically stated (as is replicated at the start of the book) that Abraham literally wrote it down on the papyrus. Why would he say that if that wasn't what happened?

Joseph Smith stated a lot of things and was often full of himself and thought he knew a lot more than he really did about many things. I see him as a very flawed human character that did and said rather goofy and unhelpful things. The thing you need to realize is that the Lord works with us, no matter how flawed we are. That is true of Joseph Smith too and assuming that just because the Lord used Joseph Smith doesn't mean he was perfect or got it always correct. That is a flawed assumption that many Mormons make and they shouldn't. They should use their own reason, intelligence, and study things out and seek inspiration from God themselves. And the fact is that the papyrus isn't that old and couldn't have been physically written by the hand of Abraham. It is Egyptian in origin and would only contain their myths.

So, in order to believe in the Book of Abraham you completely ignore what Joseph Smith explicitly said about it and what the Church prints in the front of every copy. How bizarre.

[_DonBradley]

Drifting,

Thank you for noticing my sig line. It's there to remind me that I only come here for constructive purposes and not to tear others down or score polemical "points."
Thanks, by the way, for your politeness though I've deferred your questions to be addressed in my future work. I'll endeavor to make it worth your while when it comes out.


Paul,

I can never begrudge anyone happiness, which after all is "the object and design of our existence." I hope your life's journey will carry you to the greatest happiness of which you're capable.


Tobin,

Thank you so much for your welcome back. That's interesting that you have also come back to the Church and belief in God. Have you posted your story anywhere?


Regards,

Don

[_EAllusion]

Yet in spite of these few experiences and the several years I previously spent outside the Church and posting on boards like this as a nonbeliever, I have been overwhelmingly and beautifully accepted by other Latter-day Saints--including my bishops, my stake president, LDS girls I've dated, other members of my ward, the people I worked with at the Joseph Smith Papers, the organizers of the FAIR Conference, and even the Church Historian, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, who called my several years outside the Church "little detour" I had taken in my faith and told me hat all that mattered now is that I was back and willing to serve. This experience of having been reembraced by my fellow Saints, by Church leaders, and by the Church as an institution has been one of the most profoundly moving experiences of my life. Because of it I know that the Church not only talks of forgiveness, it walks that talk.

I think if you were to apostatize from the Church again and publicly discuss your reasons for doing so you'll find that many of these same people will treat you with spite. Since you experienced it once, I'm not sure you'd be inclined to disagree. How you are embraced and treated, it would seem, is a function of your relationship with Mormonism. I view this behavior as distasteful and a little creepy while you seem to see it as a credit. Religions that require intense investment from its members generally are welcoming of those who return to the fold and nice to outsiders so long as they are friendly to the faith and/or potential converts. You seem surprised that Mormons would display this behavior while I would be shocked if they didn't. This is a huge gulf between us that I didn't know existed until a few years ago.

[_Tobin]

So, in order to believe in the Book of Abraham you completely ignore what Joseph Smith explicitly said about it and what the Church prints in the front of every copy. How bizarre.

Not really. Joseph Smith had just published the Book of Mormon and then received the papyrus and was shown the origin story as I described. He just assumed incorrectly that the papyrus was the source and that they were written by Abraham (which was physically impossible). In fact, he published the Book of Mormon and had no idea where it took place either. Joseph Smith's understanding and knowledge was imperfect and even his understanding of the gospel was developing over time.

[_Tobin]

Tobin,
Thank you so much for your welcome back. That's interesting that you have also come back to the Church and belief in God. Have you posted your story anywhere?
Regards,
Don

I have not in full detail. I'll let you know that I have experienced God and that is why I am not an ex-mormon nor an atheist any longer. And don't get me wrong either. I have no special insight into God or the gospel more than a surety of that. I am trying to come to terms with that and understand Mormonism with that perspective. I still have a very hard time with many of the beliefs taught by many Mormons and the leaders of the Church and I take a critical eye towards those teachings. If I don't find much basis in them, I still don't accept many of those doctrines and am more interested in what the actual truth may be. You'll find I take a very different view of Mormonism than most here.

[_Shulem]

Joseph Smith stated a lot of things and was often full of himself and thought he knew a lot more than he really did about many things. I see him as a very flawed human character that did and said rather goofy and unhelpful things. The thing you need to realize is that the Lord works with us, no matter how flawed we are. That is true of Joseph Smith too and assuming that just because the Lord used Joseph Smith doesn't mean he was perfect or got it always correct. That is a flawed assumption that many Mormons make and they shouldn't. They should use their own reason, intelligence, and study things out and seek inspiration from God themselves. And the fact is that the papyrus isn't that old and couldn't have been physically written by the hand of Abraham. It is Egyptian in origin and would only contain their myths.

I will agree that Joseph Smith was duped just like all the First Presidencies of the Mormon church. They are a bunch of fakes. Why follow them and call them holy apostles, prophets, seers, and TRANSLATORS? You're just as bad as they are, Tobin. You're a weasel and a fake. Your powers are no more real than Joseph Smith's and the Mormon prophets. Phooey on Mormon inspiration!

[_Tobin]

I will agree that Joseph Smith was duped just like all the First Presidencies of the Mormon church. They are a bunch of fakes. Why follow them and call them holy apostles, prophets, seers, and TRANSLATORS? You're just as bad as they are, Tobin. You're a weasel and a fake. Your powers are no more real than Joseph Smith's and the Mormon prophets. Phooey on Mormon inspiration!

Well, we'll see which of us is correct in time. If, after you die, you find you still exist - then let's discuss it then. As you know, I have to concede that you may be correct. That is only reasonable. I do not think you are however.