Shocked by Polygamy

[_Stormy Waters]

It was the lies, told from the pulpit and in the church-owned press.

And to his own wife.

in my opinion that is why defenders cling to the notion that the marriages were non-sexual.

ETA: Also it's not just polygamy, it's the polyandry.

[_thews]

Really? I heard there are people that are shocked that polygamy happened and act like it's a new revelation to them.

How can you be a member of the Church and not know about polygamy? I am confused how this is possible.

JMS

How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that Joseph Smith used his magic rocks in a stove-pipe hat to translate the supposed golden plates? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that the Urim and Thummim was in fact Joseph Smith's seer stones? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that the entire Book of Abraham was incorrectly translated from a pagan document that had nothing to do with Abraham? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that Joseph Smith translated a known hoax in the Kinderhook plates? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that "white" and delightsome was changed to "Pure" and delightsome? You wanna know why... because the teachers to itching ears lie to them.

[_Juggler Vain]

The fact that these women were his wives is prima facie evidence that he boned each and every one of them at least once. But we also have first and second hand evidence from many of these wives describing said boning. That's much more evidence than you typically get for most married couples that boning has occurred.

Nope. Not at all. It was just a dynastic marriage, basically a simple ceremony, and strictly platonic. You are just creating a fiction based on pure supposition and no basis in fact.

Just in case you are seriously interested finding an explanation that has a basis in fact, the picture Buffalo posted above is from the website Images of the Restoration. In the explanation for the picture, you will find the following statement of known facts, with embedded links to sources:

Was the Prophet’s marriage to Almera a sexual relationship?

Almera testified that after being sealed to Joseph, she “lived with the Prophet Joseph as his wife.” Benjamin reports that after the marriage ceremony, and at Joseph’s request, he brought Almera to room number 10 in Joseph’s Mansion Home, which she occupied for several days until leaving to stay at Benjamin’s house in Macedonia. Benjamin states that several weeks after the marriage, on May 15, 1843, Joseph spent the night at Benjamin’s house and “occupied the same room and bed” with Almera. Joseph Smith’s journal confirms that he stayed at Benjamin’s house that night, and Almera’s sworn affidavit states that “[Joseph] visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F. at Macedonia.”

Joseph Smith had sex with Almera Johnson, and there is no reason to believe that he didn't also do it, given the opportunity, with his other plural wives.

-JV

[_Tobin]

...

You totally don't understand what we are talking about. There are two distinct groups of women here: the dynastic marriages and the polygamous ones. Buffalo is clouding the issue by mixing up the facts by citing the polygamous relationships and then stating this was true of the dynastic ones as well.

[_why me]

For example, when Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy, he denied doing so to the general mebmership of the church. At the time, the D&C expresssly outlawed polygamy, and Joseph Smith claimed he was not doing it. That is disturbing.

Actually, I think that the membership knew about it. We need to remember that Joseph would ask family members of the women involved if it were okay. And some of those family members were present during the sealing. Difficult to keep it a secret. Also, the other wives knew. Eliza Snow for example. And when the saints went to Utah, and these sealed wives died, they often had the smith name on their tombstone. No secret there. Now it was kept secret from the public and also denied. Why? because if this were made public, the mobs would be outraged and many saints would die.

[Guest]

Joseph Smith had sex with Almera Johnson, and there is no reason to believe that he didn't also do it, given the opportunity, with his other plural wives.

-JV

No proof. What is amazing is that these women did not get pregnant. Being a fertile guy, he should have been spreading children all over Nauvoo.

[_Juggler Vain]

...

You totally don't understand what we are talking about. There are two distinct groups of women here: the dynastic marriages and the polygamous ones. Buffalo is clouding the issue by mixing up the facts by citing the polygamous relationships and then stating this was true of the dynastic ones as well.

You're right. I totally don't understand what you are talking about.

Are you saying that dynastic marriages are non-sexual? Why wouldn't sex be allowed in Joseph's dynastic marriages?

What makes the two groups of women distinct? Aren't Joseph's dynastic marriages just a subset of the polygamous ones?

Did Joseph (or does scripture) teach about any of this?

-JV

[_why me]

How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that Joseph Smith used his magic rocks in a stove-pipe hat to translate the supposed golden plates? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that the Urim and Thummim was in fact Joseph Smith's seer stones? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that the entire Book of Abraham was incorrectly translated from a pagan document that had nothing to do with Abraham? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that Joseph Smith translated a known hoax in the Kinderhook plates? How can you be a member of the LDS church and not know that "white" and delightsome was changed to "Pure" and delightsome? You wanna know why... because the teachers to itching ears lie to them.

I don't think that it would ever be possible for members to know everything. Some members would not read it or listen. The ensign in the past had a lot of information in it about the church past. Old timers knew the score. Even the hat trick was mentioned in the ensign a couple of decades ago.

There are members who have searched the internet and know all the details mentioned on critic sites but it doesn't have any effect on them. Why? because they don't consider it important. Maybe the LDS church should give each perspective member the critic handbook, then they can read it, and then have the discussions if they wish to.

What information should perspective catholics be given, or baptists or methodists be given etc.

[Guest]

I don't think that it would ever be possible for members to know everything. Some members would not read it or listen. The ensign in the past had a lot of information in it about the church past. Old timers knew the score. Even the hat trick was mentioned in the ensign a couple of decades ago.

The fact that seer stones were mentioned in the Ensign once in seventies is hardly justification for the LDS church being upfront about its history. All of the "pro" LDS sites don't show Joseph Smith with his head in his hat. The history the the church "retroactively" places the use of the "Urim and Thummim" in 1829 when it was first used three years after the Book of Mormon was published in 1833. There was no "Urim and Thummim" used to translate the supposed golden plates, yet 99% of LDS don't know that occult seer stones owned by Joseph Smith before the Book of Mormon were the only tools used. This is an intentional lie and it's the teachers to itching ears that keep the members dumbed down. To your point, it's not possible for member to know everything when distortion is fed to them and they obediently label factual information as "anti" when it's not spoon fed to them.

There are members who have searched the internet and know all the details mentioned on critic sites but it doesn't have any effect on them. Why? because they don't consider it important. Maybe the LDS church should give each perspective member the critic handbook, then they can read it, and then have the discussions if they wish to.

The reason some members (and I contend very few) search the internet and "it's not important to them" is because the truth isn't important. They have been brainwashed to believe the "burning int he bosom" is confirming truth, when it's just another tool used by a cult.

What information should perspective catholics be given, or baptists or methodists be given etc.

You aren't making sense here. If those religions came from occult seer stones placed in a hat, then they should know this truth.

[_Yoda]

You totally don't understand what we are talking about. There are two distinct groups of women here: the dynastic marriages and the polygamous ones. Buffalo is clouding the issue by mixing up the facts by citing the polygamous relationships and then stating this was true of the dynastic ones as well.

You're right. I totally don't understand what you are talking about.

Are you saying that dynastic marriages are non-sexual? Why wouldn't sex be allowed in Joseph's dynastic marriages?

What makes the two groups of women distinct? Aren't Joseph's dynastic marriages just a subset of the polygamous ones?

Did Joseph (or does scripture) teach about any of this?

-JV

From my understanding, there were both dynastic marriages, and plural marriages to Joseph. In fact, there were many women who had themselves sealed to Joseph after he died.

There has been a lot of speculation on which women were dynastic sealings and which were plural wives, in the true sense of the word. Some have felt that Helen Mar Kimball was merely a dynastic sealing. However, if that was the case, why was she disappointed about not being able to go to a dance because she was promised to Joseph?

The RLDS contention is that ALL of Joseph's sealings were dynastic, and that he didn't sleep with any wife other than Emma.

I do not believe this because, if this was the case, I don't think that Emma would have been so distraught over the whole conecept of plural marriage to begin with. There are also accounts by faithful members of the Church who have testified that Joseph did know at least several of his wives "in very deed".