Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[_Themis]

God didn't translate it.

Of course he didn't God wasn't involved at all. The point you are avoiding is that your scenario has Joseph asking God to translate the papyri. If God is giving some other story he is is misleading Joseph and confirming for Joseph that it is Abraham's writing. It is a stupid idea that has so many problems.

Again, Joseph Smith was not God's sock puppet. He wasn't handed translations nor given everything on a gold platter.

This is a dodge of what I said. It like saying something that has nothing to do with the discussion and hope people will think you addressed something. Joseph had no reason to make things up when he can ask God, and God has no logical reason to mislead Joseph.

I don't buy your example. Your assumption that Joseph Smith was God's sock puppet isn't realistic.

Another dodge. The example was a great way to show how silly the catalyst theory is. I don't know anyone with this example who would act in such stupid ways. You don't want to address why Joseph would be so stupid to make things up to an extreme extent, and why God would go along with all this when you believe they are in contact with each other so often and about revealing very specific information.

That is your theory. You also happen to be wrong. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and God will tell you that if you would speak with him.

At least this theory is reasonable. Again you still don't want to address the problems I bring up. It's Joseph got it wrong and lets not go any further with this.

I have prayed to God for many years, so if he doesn't want tpo show up it's not my problem. You just think God showed up. So what? I know many nutters who think the same thing.

[_Themis]

I don't think you've connected the dots. It's not really a major issue for the Church.

It is an issue with the church. Both with the leadership who see people leaving in large numbers, and by those who are leaving and those who may stay but have different beliefs. I think you forget who you are talking to on these forums.

And it has nothing to do with whether there are many members who are open minded enough to realize their faith could be wrong, afterall I am open minded enough to realize that.

One trait that I think suggest a close mind is those who play the possibility game. You were the king when you were posting here a lot. You would go with any possibility no matter how unreasonable. People like Consig I would say are open minded and don't do this even though he remains a believer.

[_sock puppet]

... enlightenment comes from speaking with and knowing the mind of God ...

This is off-topic, but the idea that enlightenment comes from being told what some other entity thinks does not seem to me very Buddhist at all.

But who cares what I think?

Hey, Chap, focusing on god and learning his mind helps keep one from examining his own life. So what if it's Socrates would disapprove. He was just a thinker, he wasn't god.

[_Chap]

... enlightenment comes from speaking with and knowing the mind of God ...

This is off-topic, but the idea that enlightenment comes from being told what some other entity thinks does not seem to me very Buddhist at all.

But who cares what I think?

Hey, Chap, focusing on god and learning his mind helps keep one from examining his own life. So what if it's Socrates would disapprove. He was just a thinker, he wasn't god.

The ... what was that? I can see that you are saying something, but I suspect there is a step missing somewhere, and that is preventing me understanding you.

[_Tobin]

...

I know you feel Joseph Smith had to be God's sock puppet to be a prophet. I don't believe it is a realistic expectation that other men be perfect however. Prophets are merely men, that tell the truth, as best as they inspired by God to see it. They are not controlled by God and are not God themselves. They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us. Pointing that out does not disprove they are inspired. It just proves you lack understanding about human nature.

[_son of Ishmael]

...

I know you feel Joseph Smith had to be God's sock puppet to be a prophet. I don't believe it is a realistic expectation that other men be perfect however. Prophets are merely men, that tell the truth, as best as they inspired by God to see it. They are not controlled by God and are not God themselves. They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us. Pointing that out does not disprove they are inspired. It just proves you lack understanding about human nature.

Prophets are merely men.... They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us...

Isn't there a point though that they can go too far? If a non-prophet guy were to do some of the things that the prophets have done we would not think twice of condemning them and wanting their heads on a pike. But if a prophet does it...well prophets are merely men...

What happened to "where much is given much is expected”? When I went on my mission I was told that as a missionary I was going to be held at a higher standard. Shouldn't we expect the same from our leadership?

[_Themis]

I know you feel Joseph Smith had to be God's sock puppet to be a prophet. I don't believe it is a realistic expectation that other men be perfect however. Prophets are merely men, that tell the truth, as best as they inspired by God to see it. They are not controlled by God and are not God themselves. They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us. Pointing that out does not disprove they are inspired. It just proves you lack understanding about human nature.

Prophets are merely men.... They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us...

Isn't there a point though that they can go too far? If a non-prophet guy were to do some of the things that the prophets have done we would not think twice of condemning them and wanting their heads on a pike. But if a prophet does it...well prophets are merely men...

What happened to "where much is given much is expected”? When I went on my mission I was told that as a missionary I was going to be held at a higher standard. Shouldn't we expect the same from our leadership?

Tobin will never address these simple questions and instead will continue to make straw-men arguments. He can't answer the questions since he would have to admit that the catalyst theory makes Joseph and God into dumb and dumber. My example shows how silly it really is. No wonder some like Gee just can't go there.

[_Tobin]

I know you feel Joseph Smith had to be God's sock puppet to be a prophet. I don't believe it is a realistic expectation that other men be perfect however. Prophets are merely men, that tell the truth, as best as they inspired by God to see it. They are not controlled by God and are not God themselves. They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us. Pointing that out does not disprove they are inspired. It just proves you lack understanding about human nature.

Prophets are merely men.... They are fallible and have faults just like the rest of us...

Isn't there a point though that they can go too far? If a non-prophet guy were to do some of the things that the prophets have done we would not think twice of condemning them and wanting their heads on a pike. But if a prophet does it...well prophets are merely men...

What happened to "where much is given much is expected”? When I went on my mission I was told that as a missionary I was going to be held at a higher standard. Shouldn't we expect the same from our leadership?

That is between them and God. You don't believe someone is a prophet of God because they say so. Anyone can pretend to be a prophet of God. You believe them because they are telling the truth and God confirms it. The prophets and scriptures are to lead the listener/reader to God and from there you are to get inspired and be lead.

[_Quasimodo]

That is between them and God. You don't believe someone is a prophet of God because they say so. Anyone can pretend to be a prophet of God. You believe them because they are telling the truth and God confirms it. The prophets and scriptures are to lead the listener/reader to God and from there you are to get inspired and be lead.

Does this apply to you too, Tobin?

How would we know if your experiences are true?

[_Tobin]

That is between them and God. You don't believe someone is a prophet of God because they say so. Anyone can pretend to be a prophet of God. You believe them because they are telling the truth and God confirms it. The prophets and scriptures are to lead the listener/reader to God and from there you are to get inspired and be lead.

Does this apply to you too, Tobin?

How would we know if your experiences are true?

Yes, speak with God.