Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Jersey Girl wrote:I'm going to answer your transracial question right after making this post.

Here's my next question.

Who decides the sex of an intersex child and on what basis?
I don't know, the child?

Back on topic, I seriously doubt the man in th OP was born intersex.

I'm not sure, but can he be tested for such a condition?
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_Lemmie
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Lemmie »

Could you please stop referring to the person in the OP with such ridiculous and offensive hyperbole?
Water Dog wrote: A large hairy man with 5 kids in a leadership position
From the OP:
When Hall's LDS leaders learned of her gender-identity issues in 2012, she was quietly released as stake president. She had served for eight years so it didn't raise any suspicions.

Water Dog wrote:declares that he's actually a woman and puts on a dress and high heels,
From the OP:
Next up came Hall, dressed as the man her ward members thought she was...and told her story.

Water Dog wrote: Leaving him in his leadership role could in fact lead to a lot of harm.
From the OP:
Four years after being released from that post, ...she came out to her LDS bishop in the same ward she had once led. The new bishop was open and accepting.
Water Dog wrote:responsible people take a step back from this and deal with it cautiously.

You never did explain what you meant when you said that acceptance of transgender concepts would "neuter" you.

Doc CamNC4Me, to Water Dog, wrote:You, uh, didn't read the thread. Like. Read it. All of it. Click on the related links. Read them. You're just skimming looking for anything that you think can substantiate your position. What you've quoted above makes me embarrassed for you because you're just seeing the words and not understanding them because you haven't bothered to actually read the thread and see how those words are contextualized.
excellent advice, Doc.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Sure! As soon as you answer the question.

lol, careful PP, the answer will cause her head to explode


Do you think Porter needs you to coach him in his interactions with someone he's known for at least a dozen years or is that how you defensively express your insecurities in light of the criticism from someone who deems you unable to comprehend what you're reading and answer to it on point, and a tedious waste of time?
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Polygamy-Porter wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:I'm going to answer your transracial question right after making this post.

Here's my next question.

Who decides the sex of an intersex child and on what basis?

I don't know, the child?


Actually, in the case of intersex children the parent and doctors will typically make that choice in infancy. But let's go with the child's choice.

If a child (not an infant of course) can decide what sex they are, why can't they decide what gender they are? Perhaps even later in life as an adult.


Back on topic, I seriously doubt the man in th OP was born intersex.

I'm not sure, but can he be tested for such a condition?


I don't assume anything about anyone. I look for the possible explanations and accept that in the end, I can't see the world and their place in it through someone else's eyes.

Intersex is physically apparent. For that matter so are the physical characteristics of a hermaphrodite. Those are two different things by the way.

I don't


I'm trying to be open minded and open to alternative explanations for an experience that I've never had myself.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Do you think Porter needs you to coach him in his interactions with someone he's known for at least a dozen years or is that how you defensively express your insecurities in light of the criticism from someone who deems you unable to comprehend what you're reading and answer to it on point, and a tedious waste of time?

PP is good to go, not worried about him at all. The intended target of my comment chomped all over it - hook, line, and sinker. :twisted: #triggered


Don't flatter yourself. What would "trigger" me would be something like an untreated mentally ill person blowing their brains out and causing trauma to a witness of said action.

What you've essentially admitted is that you're more interested in damned around banter than you are the topic.

It is just as I said.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Lemmie »

Water Dog wrote: The intended target of my comment chomped all over it - hook, line, and sinker. :twisted: #triggered

The "intended target"? "triggered"?

So...Water Dog's purpose in these threads is to troll. Good to know going forward.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Lemmie wrote:
Water Dog wrote: The intended target of my comment chomped all over it - hook, line, and sinker. :twisted: #triggered

The "intended target"? "triggered"?

So...Water Dog's purpose in these threads is to troll. Good to know going forward.


He's easy. He's easy in the sense that MG is easy. If the topic weren't so serious and I wanted to invest the time, I'd pursue it. As easy as they both are, they're still time consuming. As it stands, I'm unwilling to pursue any further the maturity lacking intellectually dishonest nonsense coming out of his keyboard as if it were productive which it is not.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Lemmie »

quote="Jersey Girl"]Don't flatter yourself. What would "trigger" me would be something like an untreated mentally ill person blowing their brains out and causing trauma to a witness of said action.

What you've essentially admitted is that you're more interested in damned around banter than you are the topic.

It is just as I said.[/quote]
Water Dog wrote:I've found that flattering myself .......

Troll.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Don't flatter yourself. What would "trigger" me would be something like an untreated mentally ill person blowing their brains out and causing trauma to a witness of said action.


If I'm understanding your response fully, are you saying you witnessed a gender confused person "blow their brains out?"


You cannot read and interpret one single sentence that is posted to you and respond on point.

I rest my case.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

Post by _Kishkumen »

Water Dog wrote:They don't recognize them to be the chosen people is my point. The fact that someone is claiming something is objective. You or I may not agree with their claim, but there is no doubt they are in fact making the claim. So, yes, they recognize them to be Jewish just as I would recognize this man in the OP to be claiming he's a woman. Do I believe his claims though? No, I don't.


I don't know that most Muslims spend a lot of time worrying about Jewish claims to being the chosen people. They know their Jewish friends are Jewish and that is that. Similarly, I doubt many Christians really understand or really care about the details of their Mormon friends' identity beliefs.

As far as what you believe regarding a transgender person, I guess at the end of the day I really don't care, so long as you treat other people with respect. If I were to tell you you must believe the former SP is a woman in your heart of hearts, that would be little different from me demanding that you adopt her particular beliefs. That's not really something I care to pursue. My primary point in all of this is that we should probably go out of our way to give other people the benefit of the doubt in subjective matters, treating all with respect and politeness.

Water Dog wrote:As you say, the church has a right to police itself. So what did the church do wrong? You may wish that the church could accommodate this man, but that's really a whole different subject. As the church exists right now today, it had no choice but to excommunicate him. Every member of the high council that made that decision could be died in the wool democrat voters, as progressive as is imaginable when it comes to trans issues, and the decision would have been exactly the same. It was wrong for this man to even put them in that position. Taking responsibility for his own situation, he should have quit from his position as the stake president voluntarily.


I have often seen leaders of the Church eagerly pursuing these kinds of things to make a statement or in a zealous desire to enforce the letter of the law. Frankly, I think they should live and let live. That is my opinion. I don't believe it is my position to tell the LDS Church what to do. But, I do feel free to voice my opinion about what it has done. I fundamentally disagree with the direction the LDS Church has gone on the issue of gender.

Water Dog wrote:You said, "To the extent that it does no harm to allow people their subjective identities."

Well that's a subjective opinion isn't it? What IS the harm? This is where things have to be considered case by case. Whatever is going on with this man, he cannot reasonably be allowed to remain as the stake president. Period. Even if, which is a big IF, it is scientifically proven some day that a female brain can exist in a male body, with zero negative consequences, right now today we are not at that point. A large hairy man with 5 kids in a leadership position declares that he's actually a woman and puts on a dress and high heels, responsible people take a step back from this and deal with it cautiously. Leaving him in his leadership role could in fact lead to a lot of harm.


It is my understanding that Hall is a former stake president. She was not serving as stake president at the time she transitioned. Maybe I am wrong. I am happy to be corrected. If it is the case that she transitioned during her stake presidency, then I think the correct course of action would be to release her from her calling.

Water Dog wrote:Getting away from the OP, one of the points I've made is that generally speaking this phenomenon could lead to harm in society. Trendy progressive parents subjecting their kids to hormone therapy and whatnot. And this is where I think it's very important that there exists a clear distinction between polite everyday talk and serious discussions. I don't care if this person wants to be called "she," when it comes to the safety of my kids, or the scholarship fund I'm managing, or the welfare of my business, or whatever, I have to be an adult and look at the objective truths of a situation. Maybe those truths result in a decision that accommodates the desires of this person, but maybe they don't.


There are a lot of different issues packed into this paragraph, and I don't know that I will address all of them. I don't know what to do with the "trendy progressive parents" issue you are talking about. I am reminded of anti-vaxxers not vaccinating their kids. Inasmuch as their refusal to vaccinate their kids can spread disease I think it is a problem. Should the kids be subject to diseases because their parents are idiots? But where do we draw the line here? What constitutes raising a child in your beliefs and what crosses the line into child abuse? The parents who starved their kid by feeding him nothing but cabbage because of their religious views crossed that line. Deciding to sign off on your kid's hormonal treatments because little Johnny prefers to play with dolls and wear dresses is another tricky issue. It is not inconceivable that this could be a terrible mistake.

As far as your business goes, yeah, you will make your own decisions as any business person will. You will doubtless cross some group in making your choice. I suppose you can run the numbers and try to see which course will cost you more dearly, or you can follow your personal convictions and pay the price. That's all on your conscience. My response to a business that discriminates against transgender people in order to cater to people who are intolerant of them would be not to patronize a discriminating business.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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