Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Lem]

As a technical question, is it really harassment, strictly speaking, for a superior to have an intimate relationship with a subordinate which is eagerly welcomed?

100% absolutely.

- Doc

Agreed. Also adding in that I've always included "and the loss of employment as a result of the relationship" to the definition.

[pistolero]

As a technical question, is it really harassment, strictly speaking, for a superior to have an intimate relationship with a subordinate which is eagerly welcomed?

100% absolutely.

edit: There used to be a sort of unwritten rule that if you were within a couple of ranks and the subordinate wasn't in your direct influence that it's allowed (I think the idea was to allow for pre-existing relationships like married couples). I don't know if that's changed. Whatever the case may be when it did happen it caused all sorts of disarray with regard to perceived inequitable treatment for both the affected subordinate and collateral personnel.

- Doc

I'm not a gringo, so I wonder if USA rules/interpretations are different? I work in a large organisation of 1000+ employees., but certainly in my place of work, superiors date subordinates - it's annoying. Part of me wonders if the superior exploits the subordinate for attention and conversly the subordinate dates the superior to try and get somewhere in the company. But motivates are a side note here and irrelevant.

So when you say 100%, I'm confused. When I do some research online for the situation in the new world, I find things with explanations like this:
https://www.eandblaw.com/employment-dis ... arassment/

This seems to indicate it's okay to date a subordinate. So again, "is it really harassment, strictly speaking, for a superior to have an intimate relationship with a subordinate which is eagerly welcomed?"

[pistolero]

2) Rosebud made multiple personal promises to me from the very start and throughout to “go away” if our relationship ever got to the point where it was hurting me or the Open Stories Foundation.

If I were a meme type of person I"d put some cartoon of someone rubbing eyes then peering closely again at the words here, wondering if I was possibly seeing what I was seeing.

Indeed, if I were John, I'd stop typing about right now.

But since the one thing this whole episode has taught me is that I am actually just an post-mo internet voyeur, then please keep posting...

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Pistolero,

I was referencing the US military's sexual harassment and sexual assault policies (subordinate commands can add various caveats once it's ran through legal). I'm generally unfamiliar with private sector sexual harassment policies because they can change from organization to organization.

- Doc

[pistolero]

Pistolero,

I was referencing the US military's sexual harassment and sexual assault policies (subordinate commands can add various caveats once it's ran through legal). I'm generally unfamiliar with private sector sexual harassment policies because they can change from organization to organization.

- Doc

Well this was the biggest red herring of a post so far:

As a technical question, is it really harassment, strictly speaking, for a superior to have an intimate relationship with a subordinate which is eagerly welcomed?

100% absolutely.

- Doc

If you add this into the mix:

Agreed. Also adding in that I've always included "and the loss of employment as a result of the relationship" to the definition.

then I think you're on to something for concrete.

But now we have new light and knowledge from the horse's mouth. It is now to be believed that there was an equal relationship at work. What is the push back on this idea?

[mormonstories]

Okay, what about just leaving to let Open Stories Foundation sink into obscurity under Rosebud's ambitious leadership and you continue with the successful Mormon Stories on your own. You would have only needed a couple of friends for a 501C tax status.

But she was on the board too. We both were. At least that’s how we all saw it. We were equals in that way. So why destroy it?

If you hate me or don’t care about Mormon Stories, this position makes sense.

If you value Mormon Stories, this makes little sense to me.

But I’m not interested in arguing.

[mormonstories]

Okay, what about just leaving to let Open Stories Foundation sink into obscurity under Rosebud's ambitious leadership and you continue with the successful Mormon Stories on your own. You would have only needed a couple of friends for a 501C tax status.

But she was on the board too. We both were. At least that’s how we all saw it. We were equals in that way. So why destroy everything?

If you hate me or don’t care about Mormon Stories, this position makes sense.

If you value Mormon Stories, this makes little sense to me.

But I’m not interested in arguing.

[Lem]

But now we have new light and knowledge from the horse's mouth. It is now to be believed that there was an equal relationship at work.

I assume you are speaking for yourself, because I didn't read anything that leads me to believe that.

So far mormonstories has asked 'what else could be done?' as though sexual harassment is acceptable if there doesn't seem to be a good way to deal with it that also protects the perpetrators from losing anything. The statement below is jawdropping, and to me reinforces the idea that there still is no understanding of the sexual harassment that took place:

I think Joanna and the board did the best they could to make it all equal and fair. Without ending Mormon Stories of course.

So equal and fair, but not really, because the perpetrator needed to be protected. I haven't seen any sense of accountability or even acknowledgement of the case for sexual harassment so far. I've already stated I think there is no solution to be had now, other than individual judgments made against the character by readers. Mormonstories is not helping his case so far, in my opinion.

[Dr Exiled]

Okay, what about just leaving to let Open Stories Foundation sink into obscurity under Rosebud's ambitious leadership and you continue with the successful Mormon Stories on your own. You would have only needed a couple of friends for a 501C tax status.

But she was on the board too. We both were. At least that’s how we all saw it. We were equals in that way. So why destroy everything?

If you hate me or don’t care about Mormon Stories, this position makes sense.

If you value Mormon Stories, this makes little sense to me.

But I’m not interested in arguing.

Knowing Moksha, he isn't either.

So, could you give me some background on this supposed promise by Rosebud to "go away" if you decided that it was harming you or mormonstories? Are there texts? Was this promise verbal? How did it come about? Is it your position that Rosebud threw herself at you and you relented with the condition that she would "go away" given the above?

[pistolero]

But now we have new light and knowledge from the horse's mouth. It is now to be believed that there was an equal relationship at work.

I assume you are speaking for yourself, because I didn't read anything that leads me to believe that.

Is this the money quote:

1) I’m not saying I didn’t have the most power or influence. I’m only saying that Rosebud was a founding board member. And she did have more power and influence than a mere employee. And she was a board member before she became an employee. And she was a board member while she was an employee. So all I’m saying is that she had more power and responsibility than a simple employee.

They were both founding board members. That seems reasonably equal to me? Although I'm not actually sure what board rules are here. Please expand if you can Lem.

He doesn't admit to saying he has more power, he just says that he's not saying that he didn't have most power or influence. Which is basically very non committal and a bit cryptic.

I initially read it as "power" or "influence" as in he is John Dehlin, the most famous, high profile, prolific ex-Mormon, anti-Mormon podcasting anti-christ of the noughties (we don't disagree on this right?) But I concede, the power and influence he may have been referring to may be his legal role within Open Stories Foundation?

I'm not clear actually?