Problems With Christianity

[_antishock8]

Religion, in general, and Christianity in particulary, poisons everything. It poisons everything because it's a fundamental attack on the individual. We can't know right from wrong without it. It makes us slaves to an unknowable and eternally muddy ideology. And it's totalitarian with a god that convicts us of thought crimes, who administers his unknowable will through fallible men.

[_huckelberry]

Jason, I have been trying to figure out where your puzzle lies and what about it you actually care about. Do you actually feel like you are suppose to believe that nonsense about all Muslims being toast?

Muslims may project the same limits toward you. It doesn't matter much that in Islam God just forgives, that doesn't mean he forgives you,or that he forgives idoloters.

Are you asking what beliefs encourage forgiveness between people? Do you have a view for that?

I would expect it must be a view where people are able to understand and trust their understanding of right and wrong. I suspect it must be a system where all people are authorized to act for both themselves and whatever is divine.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi 7, I've been reading you with some curiousity. Pasted below is from one of your recent posts: (I'm in this...

It's my belief that God created us to be in a fallen world needing an atoning sacrifice so that He could demonstrate & teach us the most charitable and perfect act of His love.Is there any precedend for "God" to do that? When we meet the requirements of the atonement, we become like Him and progress. What is your rational here?
And I do not believe one has to subscribe to a religion or belief in Jesus to learn and possess charity.....Agree... Then what sense can be made of the whole Christian matrix? but I do believe at some point in the afterlife when the veil is lifted, we will have to believe in and meet the conditions of Christ's atoning sacrifice to be forgiven of our sins.Why do you believe in an "after-life"? What "conditions" are you reffering to? What "sins" to be forgiven?
That is what I believe it means to accept Christ or be in hell. Do you believe in a literal "hell"? I guess you must or you couldn't think of "be(ing) in hell." It's not declaring you are a believer in Christ that saves us. It's believing that He paid your debts and now you must return this gift to another by forgiving and loving them like Jesus did for you that makes us a believer in Christ. How did you arrive at your "beliefs"? How long were you an active LDS? Serve a Mission? Other church afiliations?

I hope you don't find these questions objectionable...
Warm regards, Roger
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[Anonymous]

I hope you don't find these questions objectionable...
Warm regards, Roger

Hi Roger, :)

Seven: It's my belief that God created us to be in a fallen world needing an atoning sacrifice so that He could demonstrate & teach us the most charitable and perfect act of His love.

Is there any precedend for "God" to do that?

I'm not for sure what you are aiming for with this question. Are you asking if we needed this because of the pain we would suffer on earth from a fallen world or consequences of sin? Yes, I do see the atonement as the way of healing us and God knew beforehand it would be required for us to overcome our pain from the sins of others.

or are you asking if I believe in the pre existence war in heaven story?
or if I believe in the Mormon doctrine of exaltation to become a God? polytheism?
if the atonement was needed for Christ to become exalted by suffering not only our sins but our illnesses and sufferings of this mortal world to love us more completely?

Seven:
And I do not believe one has to subscribe to a religion or belief in Jesus to learn and possess charity

.....Agree... Then what sense can be made of the whole Christian matrix?

What I mean is that there are atheists and non Christians who have already met one of the most difficult conditions of the atonement if they have true charity for their fellowman and repentance for any harm they have caused another. There are many vehicles one could take to meet that condition, and following a Christian based religion is just one of those. It is only lack of evidence of God's existence, or having the faith of your fathers, etc. that keeps this type of person from believing in Christ. But the demands of justice still had to be met and it is only by believing in Christ's atonement that we can be set free from the Fall. Our mortal blindness and separation from God keeps many from believing Christ existed but when we die will we know if God exists and if Christ died for us? Or will we go right from one dark state to another? The scriptures say "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..."
If the veil is really lifted after this life, I believe the atheist, or the Muslim, etc. would not be able to reject that Christ existed and died for them. They could still reject the gift he gave, but not that he did it. It's the forgiveness and repentance part that is hard and if an atheist already has that virtue of charity, wouldn't the rest be easy? It's the "Christian" who in mortality had believed in the atonement of Christ but will not give mercy for his fellowman that will be in "hell" and have the tough road ahead of them. That person does not really believe in the redeeming and healing power of the atonement and lacks the pure love of Christ.


*When I state my beliefs, they are always with the premise of if Jesus Christ is our Savior, and if there is any truth to the doctrine of the Fall. It could all be made up for all I know

"why do you believe in an after life?"

Most of it can be attributed to the religious indoctrination of my childhood. Had I grown up in an environment and community of atheists, it would be interesting to see if I would create it on my own or have some kind of insight or personal revelation about it, but I'll never know. I do have hope that there is a purpose for our existence. Hope that I will see my loved ones again. Hope that God loves each of us unconditionally, the way I love my own children. It's a choice to believe based on that.

What "conditions" are you reffering to?

Truly believing/accepting that he did pay the price for my sins and yours through repentance and forgiveness.
When we suffer through the process of repenting and forgiving ourselves and others, we acquire the divine traits of humility, integrity, empathy, etc...... and the highest crowning virtue of all.....charity, the pure love of Christ. Sorry to just repeat myself from other posts here but I'm not sure what else you are asking.

How did you arrive at your "beliefs"?

it wasn't until I learned of the fallibility of Mormon doctrine that I really began to make sense of the items on my TBM shelf, but I held some of these same beliefs on the afterlife as an active believer. I couldn't believe in a God who would banish his own children to a lower kingdom/hell for eternity when we were set up to fall. As I had my own children my beliefs became stronger that God's love is unconditional. Specifically after studying the Fall of Adam and Eve, as I continue to study the history of Christianity and the scriptures, it has led me to believe in Universal salvation.
As I said, they are always with the premise of if Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible exist because the only thing I know is thatI don't know and have never known or had an undeniable witness that they do. I choose to believe and have hope in the "good news."
I obviously still hold on to the Mormon doctrines of progression, and the Fall having a purpose, but LDS are not the only believers in history to have those beliefs.

How long were you an active LDS?

BIC, married in the temple, active and faithful in church service, tithing, etc. up until disillusionment.

Serve a Mission?

No

Other church afiliations?

No

[Anonymous]

Roger:
Do you believe in a literal "hell"? I guess you must or you couldn't think of "be(ing) in hell."

No or at least not in the way most Christians believe. When I refer to hell it is the state within us of not meeting the conditions of the atonement and our fallen state of darkness from God.
This Telestial earth life is hell because we are in darkness from the knowledge that God exists here and are separated from Him.

Maybe we are sent back to earth when we don't progress.
Who knows?

When we hold bitterness or judgment against our fellowman, that's a form of hell within us. When we can't forgive ourselves by rejecting Christ's payment for our sins and lose hope of salvation, that's hell. I don't believe hell is a place we are sent for eternity because of some final judgment of our works or some kind of test on earth. I believe every single person on earth will be given the chance to accept Christ's atonement and it's not limited to this very short mortal life . That's what the "good news" is.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, I have been trying to figure out where your puzzle lies and what about it you actually care about. Do you actually feel like you are suppose to believe that nonsense about all Muslims being toast?

I know plenty of evangelicals that certainly believe Muslims will be in Hell.

It seems to me Huck that you are a more liberal type of Christian. Some of the more conservative types might think you are heading for Hell as well.

Muslims may project the same limits toward you.

I do not project them. Christianity does.

It doesn't matter much that in Islam God just forgives, that doesn't mean he forgives you,or that he forgives idoloters.

What does this have to do with this converstation.

Are you asking what beliefs encourage forgiveness between people? Do you have a view for that?

Are you reading what I say? I believe and have faith in the Christian tradition. I am LDS in that flavor.

I am just questioning the logic and rationality of the world view that Christianity presents, I do not seeing you or anyone else addressing that head on. Frankly most of what you have said seems to be rambling thoughts that have no relevance to the issue. Sorry.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi 7, from your post:

Seven: It's my belief that God created us to be in a fallen world needing an atoning sacrifice so that He could demonstrate & teach us the most charitable and perfect act of His love.

Quote:
Is there any precedend for "God" to do that?

I'm not for sure what you are aiming for with this question. Has God done anything like that before? If so, please explain. Are you asking if we needed this because of the pain we would suffer on earth from a fallen world or consequences of sin? No. Yes, I do see the atonement as the way of healing us and God knew beforehand it would be required for us to overcome our pain from the sins of others. Did he/she/it? How do you know that?

or were you asking if I believe in the Mormon doctrine of exaltation to become a God? or polytheism? No...
or if the atonement was needed for Christ to become exalted by suffering not only our sins but our illnesses and sufferings of this mortal world to love us more completely? No... The precedent set before. When? Where?

Are you suggesting this was needed more for "Christ's sake..." than for humanity's sake???
Sounds pretty garbled? But it is the end of a loooong day...
Roger...
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[_huckelberry]

Jason, It is true that I do not know what issue you are pushing to be discussed so i have posted a few things that are tangents wonderign if they apply.

At first I thought you were wondering if we were supposed to pay for sin or whether or not blood can pay for sin. I do not think either of these statements are true.

Then you seem to say the atonement is effective only for some people who do a special accept Jesus (words, ritual,emotional event??)thing. I realize that view has had substantial presence in Chistian history. It likely not a majority view but a noisy number feel that is the only real deal. I do not so am not inclined to defend it. I do not thnk Jesus or Paul taught such. I suspect it is politically attractive. People turn different religious beliefs into my group is special exclusivism. I was pointing out Muslims can do that. The observation should hint that perhaps it is not dependent upon Christianities idea of an atonement. Recient history in India has shown Hindus behaving the same way. And they have long been such a darling of religious tolerance hopes.

[_Seven]

"Jason Bourne"

I am not sure why you keep giving me the gospel line. This is really not a discussion for gospel answers.

Then you will have to exclude Christians from the discussion.
I know, your question is so much deeper than that but there isn't an answer for it that doesn't involve removing Jesus Christ the Savior from your beliefs.

But this is apples to oranges. God condemns us to Hell in Christianity for one sin, big or small. You do just ONE you are guilty of all and are going to Hell unless you repent and accept the apparent required blood sacrifice. Thus the absurd results that the repentant muderer can go to heaven but the righteous Gandhi cannot because he did not accept Jesus blood. He is going to Hell.

Mormons go nuts when other faiths tell them what they believe because of absurd teachings or doctrines once taught by Prophets or canonized scriptures but you don't have a problem attributing this uncharitable view of our fellowman to all Christianity.

Not all Christians believe that accepting Christ's blood is limited to mortality even if their doctrine conflicts with that. That's not how the atonement works and it's unfair to characterize them all with this absurdity. You'll find your hell fire and damnation very outspoken ones out there, the type who believe deathbed repentance saves a person, but if you asked most Christians, I doubt they sincerely believe Ghandi is burning in hell. Would it be fair to say all LDS believe that polygamy is still required for exaltation because it's still doctrine of the church, spiritually done in the temple today, and remains in the canon?
That's the crowning fundamental principle and ordinance in the LDS faith for exaltation/Godhood, but I doubt most Mormons really believe they will be required to live it.

[_Seven]

Are you suggesting this was needed more for "Christ's sake..." than for humanity's sake???
Sounds pretty garbled? But it is the end of a loooong day...
Roger...
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I don't believe that but wondered if you were asking that in your question. As a TBM I considered it possible that Christ needed to suffer all the pain of the world in his final step to exaltation, in order to acquire every kind of Godly trait needed to forgive and love us completely/purely, as his Father had done. Because he suffered not only for our sins, but all the illnesses, and pains of mortality, he has empathy for all of our suffering.