From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Simon Belmont

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Doctor Scratch wrote:So, it means they met, and that my informant's "intel" was correct.


Please read the underlined portions again. You indicated that they "had a meeting" specifically about FAIR, and that elder Oaks was "forced" to deliver the "bad news." So, your "informant's" intel was absolutely not correct, unless you can say the same thing about my meeting with elder Oaks (we shook hands at a stake conference, after all.)

If it hadn't been for this "intel," I doubt that any of us would have known that Oaks and Gordon "met."


Nor would anyone care. General Authorities meet hundreds of people each week. Why not begin a thread about all of them?

Plus, as I think I indicated, I'm not convinced that Gordon was telling the truth about their encounter. I know for a fact that GAs have come to speak to the FAIR people from time to time.


I do not think you know this for a fact. You're putting your TMZ spin on it again.

What are you talking about? The portion of my post that you've quoted here was merely in response to your denial that the "intel" had any merit. My point was that you couldn't possibly Elder Oaks's orders/motivations without knowing him personally.


The intel had no merit whatsoever, unless you also consider my meeting with elder Oaks all those years ago the same situation: i.e. Elder Oaks was "forced" to deliver "bad news" to me about "FAIR" and "toning it down."

I've shared some of the evidence--more than the apologists, I daresay.


All of your supposed intel -- this particular one, in fact -- is so inane and moonstruck that most serious people do not even take the time to present "evidence" because it would be like devoting time to presenting evidence that aliens are taking over the planet and we need to wear tinfoil hats to protect ourselves. Consider apologists' silence on your TMZ intel evidence that whomever is providing this intel should really invest in that tinfoil hat. And you seem to be so gullible as to post it without questioning it, as if the thinking had been done!

Part of the reason I post them is in an effort to verify the claims.


Perhaps you should use your sense of reason in order to determine whether something completely cuckoo (as 95% of your threads are) is verifiable or even remotely true.

And not a single one of them has *ever* been "completely, verifiably, utterly" falsified. As I said earlier, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to falsify many of the allegations. And yet, the apologists never do that. Ever.


Hint: apologists do not care to engage with you in such stupid claims. It would be like devoting time to the Illuminati (granted, some people do that).

It matters because it supplies further evidence in favor of the allegations.


That was what I was led to believe, yes.


You know, if you are continually duped by your "informants" like this, and gullibly repost whatever they say without a second thought I can't help you. You need a professional.

Because they're remarkably interesting,


They are remarkably conspiracy-theorist material.

I mean, think about it: if the MI's budget was drastically slashed by the Brethren, wouldn't you want to know about it? That's a really interesting development, after all.


No, I do not care. I also do not care about other organizations that restructure, or reduce or expand their budgets. Why is that interesting?

I don't know where you're getting your figures,


My figures are very lenient. I only counted threads while in your "doctor" incarnation. I did not go back to the "mister" days. You have started 146 threads. one of them might have some truth. I figured I would give you the benefit of the doubt. You're batting 0.6%.

There has been a good deal of evidence. A lot of it has been circumstantial and/or based purely on "witness" testimony, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, indeed, evidence.


Oh, okay, here is some more evidence for you.

None of it is true.

There.
_Simon Belmont

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Spurven Ten Sing wrote:Simon and Nomad, who are either of you to comment on what another is or is not? Be nice.


I cannot be an employee of U.S. Bank if I am not, in fact, employed there.

I cannot be a member of Skull and Bones if I have not attended Yale, am not, in fact, a member, and have rejected their ideals.

I cannot be a member of Toastmasters if I have not signed up for any meetings and have not attended any seminars.

I cannot be a Mormon if I no longer believe it, and no longer attend. Neither can you.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _harmony »

Simon Belmont wrote:I cannot be a Mormon if I no longer believe it, and no longer attend. Neither can you.


A Jew is always a Jew, even if he converts to Christianity.

Once a Mormon, always a Mormon. Didn't you know the church keeps the names of every member, even those who have asked that theirs be removed from the rolls?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Runtu »

Simon Belmont wrote:I cannot be a Mormon if I no longer believe it, and no longer attend. Neither can you.


What about people who attend but don't believe? Are they Mormons?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Darth J »

Simon Belmont wrote:
I cannot be a Mormon if I no longer believe it, and no longer attend. Neither can you.


Simon, does the LDS Church count people as members whether or not they believe in it and whether or not they attend?

(a) Yes

(b) No

In case you need a hint, let's ask Merrill J. Bateman:

He agreed the LDS Church’s worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.

Bateman said that number doesn’t count those in undeveloped countries who find it difficult to attend sacrament meetings.

“So you might have in the neighborhood of . . . 4 [million] and 5 million members attending church at any given time, but those who are active would be more than that.”
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

harmony wrote:
Simon Belmont wrote:I cannot be a Mormon if I no longer believe it, and no longer attend. Neither can you.


A Jew is always a Jew, even if he converts to Christianity.

Once a Mormon, always a Mormon. Didn't you know the church keeps the names of every member, even those who have asked that theirs be removed from the rolls?


Hello,

I'm counted among the flock. My CHILDREN, who haven't been baptized, are counted among the flock.

So. I think I'm qualified to discuss things-Mormon.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Themis »

Simon Belmont wrote:I cannot be an employee of U.S. Bank if I am not, in fact, employed there.

I cannot be a member of Skull and Bones if I have not attended Yale, am not, in fact, a member, and have rejected their ideals.

I cannot be a member of Toastmasters if I have not signed up for any meetings and have not attended any seminars.

I cannot be a Mormon if I no longer believe it, and no longer attend. Neither can you.


Did you even think about what you are trying to say. LOL You can be a member of these organizations and not believe in many of their goals or teachings. This is true of most religions, although some religions do take you off the roles if you don't attend for a certain period of time. The LDS church does keep you listed as a member whether you do not believe or attend. So yes a person can be a Mormon and not believe or attend, at least the church recognizes them as such, even if some bigoted members don't want to. :)
42
_RockSlider
_Emeritus
Posts: 6752
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:02 am

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _RockSlider »

gee, I'd swear they labeled me an inactive Mormon for many years, then the verdict come down I was to be labeled a less active Mormon. It is my understanding that this is my title to this date, was far as my local leaders on up are concerned.

it is so nice to have such an authority and expert here on MDB to pass out the real poop!
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:So, it means they met, and that my informant's "intel" was correct.


Please read the underlined portions again. You indicated that they "had a meeting" specifically about FAIR, and that elder Oaks was "forced" to deliver the "bad news." So, your "informant's" intel was absolutely not correct, unless you can say the same thing about my meeting with elder Oaks (we shook hands at a stake conference, after all.)


That's not really an accurate re-statement of what I said (or what I was told).

If it hadn't been for this "intel," I doubt that any of us would have known that Oaks and Gordon "met."


Nor would anyone care. General Authorities meet hundreds of people each week. Why not begin a thread about all of them?


Well, I guess I'd say that "care" is relative. Certainly, DCP and Gordon himself cared enough to comment on it. Scott Lloyd and LoaP cared. Scott, in particular, was quite savage in his attacks on Beastie. And I suppose I'll go ahead and point out that *you* seem to care insofar as you're here, kicking up a royal stink over this.

Does it bother you that the General Authorities might disapprove of FAIR, and of Mopologetics in general?

Plus, as I think I indicated, I'm not convinced that Gordon was telling the truth about their encounter. I know for a fact that GAs have come to speak to the FAIR people from time to time.


I do not think you know this for a fact.


No, I know for a fact. I was told this by someone who was "deeply embedded" with FAIR for quite some time.


What are you talking about? The portion of my post that you've quoted here was merely in response to your denial that the "intel" had any merit. My point was that you couldn't possibly Elder Oaks's orders/motivations without knowing him personally.


The intel had no merit whatsoever, unless you also consider my meeting with elder Oaks all those years ago the same situation: i.e. Elder Oaks was "forced" to deliver "bad news" to me about "FAIR" and "toning it down."


Why would Elder Oaks deliver that kind of information to you? Are you the President of FAIR? Do you sit on the Board?

I've shared some of the evidence--more than the apologists, I daresay.


All of your supposed intel -- this particular one, in fact -- is so inane and moonstruck


Why do you say that? Is it really that far out of the realm of possibility that the Brethren would disapprove of the apologists' vicious tactics?

Consider apologists' silence on your TMZ intel evidence that whomever is providing this intel should really invest in that tinfoil hat. And you seem to be so gullible as to post it without questioning it, as if the thinking had been done!


That's the thing: the apologists haven't been "silent." DCP practically erupted, launching thread after thread and post after post in the wake of the MI budget cuts allegations. It's just that he offered up no substantive counter-evidence.

Part of the reason I post them is in an effort to verify the claims.


Perhaps you should use your sense of reason in order to determine whether something completely cuckoo (as 95% of your threads are) is verifiable or even remotely true.


I think it's highly likely that some of the Brethren disapprove of FAIR/FARMS. I don't know why you would consider this to be on a par with alien invasion conspiracy theories. In fact, I have to ask: Why is this scenario "completely cuckoo" in comparison to, say, a claim about being visited by an angel named Moroni?

And not a single one of them has *ever* been "completely, verifiably, utterly" falsified. As I said earlier, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to falsify many of the allegations. And yet, the apologists never do that. Ever.


Hint: apologists do not care to engage with you in such stupid claims. It would be like devoting time to the Illuminati (granted, some people do that).


The *do* engage the claims. Hence Gordon and DCP's long thread. They just don't provide any sort of meaningful and substantive falsification.

That was what I was led to believe, yes.


You know, if you are continually duped by your "informants" like this, and gullibly repost whatever they say without a second thought I can't help you. You need a professional.


Have I been "duped"? I kind of think not, given my general skepticism about the allegations.

I mean, think about it: if the MI's budget was drastically slashed by the Brethren, wouldn't you want to know about it? That's a really interesting development, after all.


No, I do not care. I also do not care about other organizations that restructure, or reduce or expand their budgets. Why is that interesting?


It's interesting because it's a commentary on the Mopologists' mission....and whether or not they are succeeding or failing in it.

There has been a good deal of evidence. A lot of it has been circumstantial and/or based purely on "witness" testimony, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, indeed, evidence.


Oh, okay, here is some more evidence for you.

None of it is true.

There.


Well, Simon, my source material is coming from deep within Church "bureaucracy." Since I know that you are an IT guy at Stamford Hospital, I know that you don't have the same kind of contact information that I have been getting. So my evidence Trump's yours.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Simon Belmont

Re: From My Informant: DCP & Schryver Ordered to Stand Down

Post by _Simon Belmont »

SB wrote:Please read the underlined portions again. You indicated that they "had a meeting" specifically about FAIR, and that elder Oaks was "forced" to deliver the "bad news." So, your "informant's" intel was absolutely not correct, unless you can say the same thing about my meeting with elder Oaks (we shook hands at a stake conference, after all.)


Scratch wrote:That's not really an accurate re-statement of what I said (or what I was told).


Isn't it? It appears that we may have a reading comprehension issue here. Let me put it in a convenient side-by-side table for you:

Image

What I represented was exactly what you said. It is undeniable.

Well, I guess I'd say that "care" is relative. Certainly, DCP and Gordon himself cared enough to comment on it. Scott Lloyd and LoaP cared. Scott, in particular, was quite savage in his attacks on Beastie. And I suppose I'll go ahead and point out that *you* seem to care insofar as you're here, kicking up a royal stink over this.


We all care (and I use the term loosely) because we do not like to see you misrepresenting what actually happened by utilizing TMZ tactics and putting a dramatic spin on a simple handshake and "good job" at a stake conference (something I, too have received).

Does it bother you that the General Authorities might disapprove of FAIR, and of Mopologetics in general?


I would not be surprised FAIR did not even register as a blip on the Brethrens' radar. Why should it? FAIR is not an official organization of the Church.

No, I know for a fact. I was told this by someone who was "deeply embedded" with FAIR for quite some time.


Kevin Graham doesn't count. He's too jaded and cynical to see straight. Your "intel" is wrong, because I know for a fact that it is.

Why would Elder Oaks deliver that kind of information to you? Are you the President of FAIR? Do you sit on the Board?


You are making a false assumption here that Elder Oaks actually knows what FAIR is, or what they do. Can you demonstrate that he does? Scott Gordon probably has had many priesthood callings in his stake, and Elder Oaks said "Keep up the good work" as he would to a deacon, or as he did to me all those years ago.

Why do you say that? Is it really that far out of the realm of possibility that the Brethren would disapprove of the apologists' vicious tactics?


The only viscousness I have seen is that which is intended to match that of the critics. Critics set the tone, Scratch. They always have. Go over to the Conference Center during General Conference if you don't understand this concept.

That's the thing: the apologists haven't been "silent." DCP practically erupted, launching thread after thread and post after post in the wake of the MI budget cuts allegations. It's just that he offered up no substantive counter-evidence.


I would defend my employer too, and I believe I have. DCP and Gordon, according to you, have been silent on the substantive counter-evidence because your theories are so insane.

I think it's highly likely that some of the Brethren disapprove of FAIR/FARMS.


If the Brethern disapproved of the Maxwell Institute, it would be shut down. I doubt they know what FAIR is.

In fact, I have to ask: Why is this scenario "completely cuckoo" in comparison to, say, a claim about being visited by an angel named Moroni?


When you start a worldwide religion with your cuckoo theories, get back to me, Doctor "Paper Mormon" Scratch.


The *do* engage the claims. Hence Gordon and DCP's long thread. They just don't provide any sort of meaningful and substantive falsification.


And why should they? Must I provide meaningful falsification about upside-down people living at the core of the planet?

Have I been "duped"? I kind of think not, given my general skepticism about the allegations.


If you are skeptical, why post the threads? Do you just enjoy the TMZ-style attention?

Well, Simon, my source material is coming from deep within Church "bureaucracy." Since I know that you are an IT guy at Stamford Hospital, I know that you don't have the same kind of contact information that I have been getting. So my evidence Trump's yours.


How do you know I am not deep within the Church "bureaucracy?" Do you now, all-of-the-sudden believe I was being truthful when I disclosed my employer?
Post Reply