Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

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Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

 
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_Chap
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Chap »

Buffalo wrote:The repentance steps are only for the lay members and for the Catholics. The church leadership gets a pass on that.


That is just the point.

The Catholic Church felt perfectly able to apologize corporately 'to God and to people' for wrongs done to the Jews by its members even though nobody has ever accused the then hierarchy of the Catholic Church of having organized massacres of Jews - probably because they simply didn't.

On the other hand, the CoJCoLDS has not apologized corporately for the wrongs done by its members at Mountain Meadows, even though this need not involve stating that the then leadership of the CoJCoLDS organized the massacre.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Simon Belmont

Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Simon Belmont »

jon wrote:Yes, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints today would look an awful lot like the FLDS!


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Buffalo wrote:The repentance steps are only for the lay members and for the Catholics. The church leadership gets a pass on that.

The too-usual silly nonsense from Buffalo.

But it is true that repentance is for the person or persons who committed the offense. I can't repent for my neighbor's misdeeds, and he can't repent for mine.

Chap's point is more serious.

I think the expressions of "regret" from Elder Eyring and others have been just right. I don't think an "apology" or "repentance" on behalf of the Church itself is required, since I don't believe that the Church, as the Church, did anything substantially wrong.

Moreover, I don't think that an apology from the Church would be wise. Not for legal reasons (though some may apply), but because there are those (on this thread and elsewhere) who seek to pin the blame for the Mountain Meadows Massacre precisely on the Church. If the Church were to falsely assume even the appearance of any responsibility for the massacre, this would serve up a fast, slow-pitch softball to the Church's most rabid critics that they would be singing about for a century to come.

By contrast, if there's anybody who has ever suggested that the Catholic Church -- whether Rome or the hierarchy in Poland -- ordered that Polish massacre of Jews, I've never encountered the suggestion.

Chap wrote:The Catholic Church felt perfectly able to apologize corporately 'to God and to people' for wrongs done to the Jews by its members even though nobody has ever accused the then hierarchy of the Catholic Church of having organized massacres of Jews - probably because they simply didn't.

Although, over the centuries, sometimes Catholic leaders did. At least on the more local level.

And, at other times, they showed themselves quite heroic in defending Jews. And particularly so during the period in question. (I vigorously object, by the way, to those who call Pius XII "Hitler's pope" and claim that he was soft on Nazism. The historical record depicts him in quite the opposite way, and he has been unjustly maligned.)

I would rephrase Chap's comment, above, as follows:

Chap wrote:The Catholic Church felt perfectly able to apologize corporately 'to God and to people' for wrongs done to the Jews by its members precisely because nobody has ever accused the then hierarchy of the Catholic Church of having organized massacres of Jews - probably because they simply didn't.

On to the second part of Chap's comment:

Chap wrote:On the other hand, the CoJCoLDS has not apologized corporately for the wrongs done by its members at Mountain Meadows, even though this need not involve stating that the then leadership of the CoJCoLDS organized the massacre.

But, as I say, an institutional apology would, in the minds of many critics, constitute an admission of institutional guilt. And that would be a historical falsehood.

Furthermore, there is historically no question that certain distortions of Christian teaching over the centuries -- for which, sadly and by its own admission, the Catholic Church does bear some institutional responsibility -- have contributed to anti-Semitism in Europe. It is not inappropriate for the Catholic Church to apologize for that, and it has, very much to its credit, done so repeatedly. (Nowadays, and certainly since World War Two, the most virulent anti-Semitism is to be found among secular ideologues -- as the Nazis themselves pretty much were -- not among Christians.)

Again, by contrast, the best historical analysis of the factors leading to the Mountain Meadows Massacre shows little if any influence of Mormon doctrine on the events. There is, really, no need to invoke such influence as a factor -- Ockham's Razor is useful here as elsewhere -- because other factors explain what happened well enough without it.
_Chap
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Chap »

I am grateful for DCP's attention.

So far as I can see, his answer is in essence this:

1. The CoJCoLDS should not follow the example of the Catholic Church in Poland, which apologized on behalf of those of its members who had undoubtedly committed a massacre, without admitting any responsibility for that massacre on the part of its then leadership.

Because:

2. Ill-intentioned people might interpret that apology by the CoJCoLDS on behalf of those members as an admission of responsibility for that massacre on the part of its then leadership.

I think that those who write speeches for the First Presidency are rather better at their jobs than DCP is willing to give them credit for.

In fact I think I could write an excellent speech for the First Presidency that would apologize on behalf of those who committed the Mountain Meadows massacre in a way that would make it impossible for such a speech to be interpreted as an admission that the leadership of the church at the time of the massacre were in any way concerned, or bore any blame whatsoever.

Whatever happened to 'Choose The Right'?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Buffalo
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Buffalo »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Buffalo wrote:The repentance steps are only for the lay members and for the Catholics. The church leadership gets a pass on that.

The too-usual silly nonsense from Buffalo.

But it is true that repentance is for the person or persons who committed the offense. I can't repent for my neighbor's misdeeds, and he can't repent for mine.


The brethren represent the church as an organization and historical body. The church is still stained with the blood of these people.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Chap
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Chap »

Buffalo wrote: The church is still stained with the blood of these people.


Do you mean to imply that any living member of the CoJCoLDS bears any moral responsibility for what was done at Mountain Meadows?

Or do you just mean that people who hear about the MMM just tend to think more unfavorably of the CoJCoLDS than they would otherwise do?

Or what?

Words like 'stained with the blood' sound dramatic, but can end up meaning very little that is worth arguing about. For instance, if you are a US citizen, are you 'stained with the blood' of the Native Americans who were exterminated in order to make room for the aspirations of the state to which you owe allegiance? Just to be clear, I don't think you are. But if you aren't stained with blood, why is the CoJCoLDS?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Buffalo
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Buffalo »

Chap wrote:
Buffalo wrote: The church is still stained with the blood of these people.


Do you mean to imply that any living member of the CoJCoLDS bears any moral responsibility for what was done at Mountain Meadows?

Or do you just mean that people who hear about the MMM just tend to think more unfavorably of the CoJCoLDS than they would otherwise do?

Or what?

Words like 'stained with the blood' sound dramatic, but can end up meaning very little that is worth arguing about. For instance, if you are a US citizen, are you 'stained with the blood' of the Native Americans who were exterminated in order to make room for the aspirations of the state to which you owe allegiance? Just to be clear, I don't think you are. But if you aren't stained with blood, why is the CoJCoLDS?


I mean the church as the institution. I wouldn't lay MMM at the feet of any living person.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Willy Law
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Willy Law »

why me wrote:I am still waiting for the federal govenment to apologize to the LDS church for the pain and suffering that was caused to the early saints in the LDS church. Between murders and property destruction, displacement, an apology should be offered. The federal govenment could have done something to protect the freedom that the early LDS should have enjoyed in a land that claimed itself free.


How did you feel about the apology from Missouri? Is that what you would like to see from the federal government?
I don't think you will get far trying to paint us here as anti-Mormon in that sense. Most of us, myself included, had ancestors that were on the ugly side of the persecution in the early church. I had an ancestor that was killed in Missouri, so I agree with you.
While the people living in Missouri today have nothing to apologize for, those representing the institution that caused the persecution (the state of Missouri) did owe us an apology.
Likewise those representing the institution that caused the slaughter at Mountain Meadows (the LDS church) owe and apology, not regret.
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
Bruce R. McConkie
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

The church should apologize for creating an atmosphere of fear and revenge instead of forgiveness and faith. The church failed to provide spiritual guidance to the people who perpetrated the massacre and it continues to fail to provide spiritual guidance to those who would defend it in this matter.
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
_why me
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _why me »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:The church should apologize for creating an atmosphere of fear and revenge instead of forgiveness and faith. The church failed to provide spiritual guidance to the people who perpetrated the massacre and it continues to fail to provide spiritual guidance to those who would defend it in this matter.


Bulldinky. The US government and the protestant churches that the mobs belonged to should apologize to the LDS church for their intolerance of Mormons. For afterall some of the members of the mobs went to church on sunday with their wives. Why couldn't these protestant churches control their flock and preach the word? It is here that forgiveness needs to come.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


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Joseph Smith
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